Thick blood causing shortness of breath

[LilF]

I just got Blossom's blood results. She is estimated between 2-4 years old. Her thyroid values are all normal. This was tested extensively. The vet mentioned polycythemia, thick blood. He said it can cause seizures. He suspects or wants to rule out a pulmonary issue and retest in 2 months to see what direction it is going. He explained to me that due to thick blood she is low on oxygen so when she walks, as I observed, she is not getting oxygen and the body is making new red blood cells thinking it needs to (high reticulocytes, hematocrit and hemoglobin). He said RBC is high normal but some of her numbers are near the cut off. BUN is up mildly but no other kidney levels. HW and tick testing fine.
I will get her an xray next week I guess to rule out lung tumors. I do not know if any of this is vaccine induced or toxin induced from flea/heartworm etc... stuff the shelter gave. I did start her this morning on thuja 30c and will give her Lyssin 30c at night for 4 weeks. The vet does not recommend an elective surgery so I am glad that I took this seriously and had it investigated. Thank you JJ----my deceased dog last June whose lesson was to follow your gut, something I did not do with him.... This explains why she plops on the floor after a walk and her slow walking. Yet other times she goes like a bat out of hell and pulling like crazy so is polycythemia an intermittent problem?This cannot be happening. I love this dog so much. I know I am not supposed to be crushed but I am. She deserves a long life after all she went through at the shelter. She trusts, is the most intuitive, connected dog to me in such a short amount of time. The vet said that thick blood is treated with phlebotomy. But I thought fish oil thins the blood too. I know, homeopathy but that will take weeks to get started. What was her background there in NYC--did she live with smokers??!! For all my friends her locally who thought I was making this up---NO. I am intuitive and observant and glad I was because otherwise surgery may have killed her that is scheduled for May 8th. Oh, I forgot to ask the vet....what about dehydration--simple as that? I know people get thick blood from dehydration. She NEVER Drinks from the water bowl. Yes I give a fresh food wet diet and goat milk in the afternoon but she is NOT getting her fluid requirement. I think her urine tests were normal. I just feel that not drinking water seems important, especially with thick blood. What do you think?

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Hey Lil!

I did start her this morning on thuja 30c and will give her Lyssin 30c at night for 4 weeks

As we discussed yesterday, I would not advise trying to tackle Blossom's health issue by doing homeopathic treatments on your own. Especially daily Lyssin which can create aggression.

Starting ASAP to work with Drs. Judy, Adriana, Todd or myself would be the best HMDM Step 3 (implementation) action that you can take.

Maybe you can even start with someone in the next few days.

Animal Wellness Center

At Animal Wellness Center, our primary modality of treatment is homeopathy. We also use nutritional supplements, western and eastern herbs, Bach flower essences, and conventional medicines where deemed appropriate.

www.judithhermandvm.com

Natural Pet Care - Metairie / New Orleans, Louisiana - Dr. Adriana Sagrera, DVM

Dr. Sagrera is committed to alternative medicine as a way to improve the health of her patients by the most natural and non-invasive means possible.

drsagrera.com

About Dr. Todd Cooney | Natural Animal Consulting

About Dr. Todd Cooney | Natural Animal Consulting

www.naturalanimalconsulting.com

If you are even considering working with a vet homeopath as part of your vet care team, please hold off on any further dosing (other than this morning's Thuja dose which she already had).

BTW-Yesterday you mentioned that her HCT (blood count) was 62. FWIW-this is normal in some dogs so if this was the true underlying problem, then every dog with this blood count would be short of breath (which they are not).

Here's more info (note that a HCT of 65 is the low end cutoff for true polycythemia and that the red cells may be high secondary to a number of lung dis-eases):

VetFolio

VetFolio Online Learning

www.vetfolio.com

If you want to pursue more diagnostics then perhaps start with chest x-rays read by a radiologist and an erythropoeitin level.


Regardless of the pathology involved, and underlying energetic imbalance is the cause (IMHO). Energetic treatment is therefore needed to smooth out her energy flow.

 

[LilF]

I just got the blood test back today and so I did not know her HCT level but it was 61 and I think the cut off is about 55. I did mention her respiration at one point was 60 over an hour after a spirited walk she had last weekend. Is it fair to say that the best homeopath is the one who has worked with this particular thing in the past with success? Dr. Segrera will not work. With Gabby she was very unavailable for needs after the consult and I was not given an emergency number. It was days before she would get back to me. Gabby had hemangiosarcoma and time was of the essence so I stopped using her due to poor responsiveness in my case. I have worked with Dr. Judy and she seems thorough. I have seen Dr. Cooney on some pet summits.... I have to see who is most available and who may have dealt with this issue. I have never heard Lyssin causes aggression. I suppose if it detoxes Rabies that could make sense but a lot of vets recommend it. Hmmm, got me thinking now. I want to explore other things as well, are there things that can thin the blood like fish oil, curcumin, fluid--- I have read additional B vitamins, seaweed, kefir are helpful-or is the problem that the immune system makes too many RBC. If blood clots can form, then what about proteolytic enzymes like nattokinase. I am still learning about this. I already emailed the vet and asked him to contact the lab to add the erythropoeitin (THANK YOU) it would avoid another stress on Blossom. The results took so long to come in so hope they still have the blood, it will be 2 weeks since it was drawn come Wednesday.

 

[Dr. Jeff]

fish oil, curcumin, fluid--- I have read additional B vitamins, seaweed, kefir are helpful

Yes! These would be great.

If blood clots can form, then what about proteolytic enzymes like nattokinase

If you are truly worried about thrombi (tiny clots that can cause nasty issues for most organs) then yes to nattokinase. I suspect tho that it's not needed.

Since you've worked with Dr. Judy before, I'd suggest your contacting her office on Mon. Maybe you can even get started in the next week.

YW! Unfortunately tho, labs don't usually hold blood for 2 weeks.

 

[LilF]

Dr. Jeff, I already emailed the vet. I thought the erythropoeitin was a super idea. I was reading all about it in the Merck manual. I see another vet for a second opinion this week as well. Do you think xrays are a good idea now or wait a bit. ( I guess I would need to know what to give her before and after the xray to reduce the effects of the radiation. I think he has an older machine. I was reading this could also be from splenic contractions as a sequela to fear and excitement which she does have quite a bit of, especially when she was at the vets. I also read this is a rare disease. Do her female hormones have any part in this since she is not spayed. If she had this before she was given all the toxins and vaccines, then it was really a good idea that her spay was not done at that time as an added and maybe even fatal burden.

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Do you think xrays are a good idea now or wait a bit.

Yes, it's a good idea as part of her workup (ass well as a urinalysis and possibly also a blood pressure). No rush so if possible find a vet with a newer machine (and preferably digital) x-ray machine.

( I guess I would need to know what to give her before and after the xray to reduce the effects of the radiation.

There's no need to worry about this for most pets (especially if a newer machine is used)

I was reading this could also be from splenic contractions as a sequela to fear and excitement which she does have quite a bit of, especially when she was at the vets. I also read this is a rare disease.

Yes and yes!

Do her female hormones have any part in this since she is not spayed.

Probably not.

 

[LilF]

Dr. Jeff said: "As we discussed yesterday, I would not advise trying to tackle Blossom's health issue by doing homeopathic treatments on your own. Especially daily Lyssin which can create aggression."

So I have not given Blossom the LYssin but gave her 2 doses of Thuja. I do believe she already has behaviour problems. This evening I saw she peed in the house, not just marking. Isn't that a form of aggression? She also accepts petting from people and as she did again today while walking her down the street and when the person starts to walk away, she barks and leaps at them and frightens the people. I called 2 trainers recently and one wants her to use a muzzle and the other, a veterinary behaviourist never called me back. Soon as they hear she nips, they do not want to come out. I put her in the garage if she feels she has to pee in the house. She knew she did wrong as she did not want to go out. Blossom just had a urinalysis with her blood work. So I do not know if this peeing in the house is because she may be going into heat again? Last heat was December. Or maybe she just had to go but either way, she was let out 2 hours earlier. Maybe she was mad because she did not get all of my apple. Either way I do think that SHE thinks she is the dominant one here and that has to change. I hate to send her away to be trained by forceful methods but she needs limits and boundaries and to know her place in the pack. Plus she still has behaviour issues in the car which is why I thought the detox with thuja and lyssin were appropriate.

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Oh Val, I just had a thought about Blossom's behavior.

We're into the final week of Miranda's excellent Mindful Gog summit.

If you have time to sign up and watch some of the videos about mindfulness, our thoughts and "aggressive" dogs, I bet it could be super helpful.

I don't know the link offhand, but I'm. sure that @aruna has it.

 

[MauraF]

I just got Blossom's blood results. She is estimated between 2-4 years old. Her thyroid values are all normal. This was tested extensively. The vet mentioned polycythemia, thick blood. He said it can cause seizures. He suspects or wants to rule out a pulmonary issue and retest in 2 months to see what direction it is going. He explained to me that due to thick blood she is low on oxygen so when she walks, as I observed, she is not getting oxygen and the body is making new red blood cells thinking it needs to (high reticulocytes, hematocrit and hemoglobin). He said RBC is high normal but some of her numbers are near the cut off. BUN is up mildly but no other kidney levels. HW and tick testing fine.
I will get her an xray next week I guess to rule out lung tumors. I do not know if any of this is vaccine induced or toxin induced from flea/heartworm etc... stuff the shelter gave. I did start her this morning on thuja 30c and will give her Lyssin 30c at night for 4 weeks. The vet does not recommend an elective surgery so I am glad that I took this seriously and had it investigated. Thank you JJ----my deceased dog last June whose lesson was to follow your gut, something I did not do with him.... This explains why she plops on the floor after a walk and her slow walking. Yet other times she goes like a bat out of hell and pulling like crazy so is polycythemia an intermittent problem?This cannot be happening. I love this dog so much. I know I am not supposed to be crushed but I am. She deserves a long life after all she went through at the shelter. She trusts, is the most intuitive, connected dog to me in such a short amount of time. The vet said that thick blood is treated with phlebotomy. But I thought fish oil thins the blood too. I know, homeopathy but that will take weeks to get started. What was her background there in NYC--did she live with smokers??!! For all my friends her locally who thought I was making this up---NO. I am intuitive and observant and glad I was because otherwise surgery may have killed her that is scheduled for May 8th. Oh, I forgot to ask the vet....what about dehydration--simple as that? I know people get thick blood from dehydration. She NEVER Drinks from the water bowl. Yes I give a fresh food wet diet and goat milk in the afternoon but she is NOT getting her fluid requirement. I think her urine tests were normal. I just feel that not drinking water seems important, especially with thick blood. What do you think?

My beloved Shih Tzu Joli had this condition for her last 7 years. She passed at age 15, September 2022. You may want to read up on polycythemia. Polycythemia In Dogs: Symptoms, Causes, & Treatments - DogTime Best wishes to you both.

 

[LilF]

Thank you Maura. I am sorry for your beloved Joli but sounds like you managed her condition really well. 15 is a "good age" as my dad would say. Sad nonetheless. Thank you for the link which I will read. I think we are our animals best advocates and thanks to the internet we can be even better ones. I just got a second opinion from a vet my friend goes to. My friend says that "he is never wrong..." So as hard as it was to get Blossom there---she still has difficulty RIDING in the car, I figured out a way to get her there. I first take her to a park on the way, let her blow off all her energy and then put her in the car to go to the clinic. When she gets to the clinic I take her out and let her wait outside till they are ready. IT WORKED!!! After a walk in between home and the final destination, it does help her settle down. I used lavender and whole tones CD in the car as well. Also treats making her even fatter!!! So the second opinion was that Blossom does NOT have polycythemia. He said that when he sees elevated hematocrit he thinks dehydration. After I read about polycythemia and saw dehydration could cause it, my gut was saying that maybe she was dehydrated because she never, never drinks water (I do not think the moisture in the food is enough). So he came up with this on his own after reviewing the blood work. He also said she gained 10 lbs in 2.5 months and she was too fat. He also said she may have some pancreatitis based on the specific pancreatic enzyme elevation Spec cPL 229 and suggested a lower fat and lower calorie diet and then retest. He thought everything would fall back in line when dehydration is resolved. Her RBC count was normal 8.5 as he said but I said it is at the high end of normal. He still thought dehydration and obesity and the pancreas. I put off her spay. He said that it is better if she lost weight for a surgery too.

 

[LilF]

Dr. Jeff, I already emailed the vet. I thought the erythropoieitin was/is a super idea. I was reading all about it in the Merck manual. I see another vet for a second opinion this week as well. Do you think xrays are a good idea now or wait a bit. ( I guess I would need to know what to give her before and after the xray to reduce the effects of the radiation. I think he has an older machine. I was reading this could also be from splenic contractions as a sequela to fear and excitement which she does have quite a bit of, especially when she was at the vets. I also read this is a rare disease. Do her female hormones have any part in this since she is not spayed. If she had this before she was given all the toxins and vaccines, then it was really a good idea that her spay was not done at that time as an added and maybe even fatal burden.

@Dr. Jeff Again I thought this suggestion to test Blossom's EPO level was excellent. Since then, I have been reading about what a high or low EPO level could indicate. Blossom is going to be retested again in about 10 days and I requested the EPO test.

Here is what my vet said:

"As far as Polycythemia goes the lab does not run Erythropoietin because it is not sensitive or specific for primary polycythemia (I called the lab about this information). The work up for polycythemia is the imaging, radiographs and ultrasound combined. With a primary polycythemia backed into by not finding a cause for hypoxia (not necessarily cancer)."

I am looking only to know whether the EPO is low or high. According to the Merck Manual link you sent me, Under Polycythemia Absolute it gives indicators for either primary or secondary causes of the erythrocytosis. I understand the EPO does not diagnose the polycythemia but only gives more info as to what could be going on depending if it is high or low. Combined with an O2 level I thought it would hone in on what to look at next or narrow the field of possibilities. Does IDEXX run EPO levels? I know they give synthetic EPO to kidney patients so how do they know if it is needed if it cannot be tested???? Did my vet mistakenly ask the lab if the EPO diagnoses polycythemia versus what I want which is just a level. Am I on the right track just wanting a level or is my vet misunderstanding thinking I want the EPO to determine polycythemia which I am not asking for. I want to figure it out myself what she has by getting the EPO LEVEL, that is all---not wanting a diagnosis. Hope this makes sense. I think it is a terrific idea to do this test from all I have read. Here is the Merck link again:

Erythrocytosis and Polycythemia in Animals - Circulatory System - Merck Veterinary Manual

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Does IDEXX run EPO levels?

Great question Lil! I'll ask them.

 

[LilF]

Dr. Jeff, I went online and did not see IDEXX has it as an offering. I did not want it for diagnosis of Polycythemia, only as a level of EPO which according to the Merck Manual section you sent (I also sent that to my vet---professional version) they use EPO as a way to determine if polycythemia is primary or secondary. I was up late checking MSU, Texas, Wisconsin labs etc... and googling where to get an EPO test and nothing found. Idexx does not list the test. I am striking out. She gets her blood work a week from Wed and was hoping for that test. Human labs like Antech, Quest, Cleveland Clinic, Request a test lab and others offer the test. Cleveland Clinic newsletter I read says they use it to identify polycythemia. I wonder if any vets of mine EVER dealt with it since it is rare and seen in old dogs. My vet just emailed me too and said that his O2 meter means the dog cannot move, it is put on the lip, but youtube showed this is possible. So I am striking out with the vet in getting any info other than the bloods. Is there any other blood test to determine blood thickness or the amount of O2. I guess coagulation panel maybe? If you can think of any test to add please let me know before a week from Wednesday. Thank you

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Polycythemia is so rare that it is not commercially feasible for any labs to offer a validated assay.

It's only available at some universities when one of the research groups is offering it.

Is there any other blood test to determine blood thickness .

Yes! A plain ole CBC is great!

I guess coagulation panel maybe?

Only if you want to spend extra money...

If you can think of any test to add

All she really needs at this point is a routine fasted (8-12 hours) CBC/profile, urinalysis (with reflex protein:creatinine).

If the lab is Idexx maybe also request a 4Dx with reflex C6.

 

[LilF]

I was also wondering from all my reading, they suggest a PCV. I did not see that on the results. But then I wondered if PCV is the same as hematocrit (I don't want to sound like a dummy when I talk to my vet

I think she had the 4DX last time (Isn't that the tick panel) It says Heartworm, Erlichia, Lyme and Anaplasma. If this is the 4DX should I have it repeated with a reflex C6?

Also what is the 'reflex' protein:creatinine....... Is that the UPCR test? Is the reflex part just a more descriptive name or is it a separate test

I know fasting is best but to get her there, more than likely she needs a few morsels of turkey. I know last time they listed lipemia and could not further look at RBC morphology. The footnote also indicated that due to lipemia, it also may artificially increase HGB (hers was increased to 21 and cut off was 20.7) Her MCH and MCHC were normal but they say lipemia could artificially elevate those markers too.

I just thought that someone should offer erythropoietin because they give it to dogs with LOW RBC but I guess they never measure the actual erythropoietin.

I was just hoping to get an O2 level (I also saw this done on youtube with a veterinary meter) on her but the vet said she couldn't be awake for it.... I don't really agree since I saw it done on youtube but maybe he could let me borrow his and when I pet her she will be still and I can get a reading. Thanks for answering my questions!

 

[Dr. Jeff]

I wondered if PCV is the same as hematocrit

Yes (sort of). The way you measure each is sometimes different but otherwise they are the same thing.

f this is the 4DX should I have it repeated with a reflex C6?

Yes. This way the lab automatically ("reflex") runs the C6 if the Lyme test is positive.

Also what is the 'reflex' protein:creatinine....... Is that the UPCR test?

Yes!

UPCR=urine protein:creatine ratio

 

[LilF]

Just to be sure, So her Lyme was negative so I should still run another? No C6 needed if Lyme was negative, right? I can run it if she needs it but the vet will ask why so I need an answer if I am to run it again. Thank You!!!!

 

[Dr. Jeff]

If the negative test was recent then IMHO there is no need to run it again Lil.

 

[LaurenHW]

If the negative test was recent then IMHO there is no need to run it again Lil.

@Dr. Jeff Have Vets been seeing Covid in Dogs? Is there any recent information on covid and vaccinations and shedding from Humans to Animals?

The past few years, Thick Blood in Humans is being seen with high spike proteins associated with illness and vaccines. Makes my Mind think outside the box & wonder.

For Humans we’re seeing great improvement of spike proteins with Methalane Blue, Black Seed Oil, Natto Serrazime, Red Clover & Lumbrokynase(may be questionable not keeping up to date on this one)

I’d love to hear anything that all of you Vets & Members know about this in Animals. Its so mew I’m not sure there’s much data and would like to know & learn.

 

[LilF]

LaurenHW, sooooo glad you brought this up. I have suspected this for 2 years in my dogs with one dying from bleeding issues and the other from clotting issues, and now a young dog with problems with her RBC and thickened blood. all of which are reported from spike. Shedding concerns are in the manufacturers own data. I know well how to protect myself but never knew how to protect my dogs. Nobody was talking about it in any of the many many podcasts for humans I listened to on this topic from various researchers, pathologists, doctors etc... Gabby was super healthy, walked with vitality, ate like a horse. I might add, I had done several bloods on her an the other dog and saw changes that made my eyes bug out. They say she had hemangio metastasized and died in about 3 weeks. However, the kidney is not a site of metastasis as I understand from oncologists, but she had kidney tumors too. So that in itself was questionable. JJ, and I have the bloodwork to show, had normal ProBNP mid to end of 2021. This test shows how hard the heart (myocardium specifically) is working. By Jan 2022, his shot up to over 10,000, previously in the low hundreds months earlier. He also passed out in Jan of 2022. On necropsy his blood was so thick the vet said it went all over him when he tried to prepare it to send out. JJ's heart was so fibrotic and so were his kidneys the vet said he never saw anything like this. Obviously he had a clotting issue that caused interruptions in blood flow and death of the organ tissue. JJ had developed an irregular heartbeat probably caused by the scarring of the heart. Morticians have reported clots they have had to cut out before embalming. So do dogs get Covid? I don't believe so but I believe they are affected by spike. Don't the researchers do experiments on animals to test effects? So yes I firmly believe my dogs, 2 within 6months of each other and here now a very young dog, having some bizarre symptoms and what the vets call a "rare disease", polycythemia, that only occurs in old dogs. So rare, most vets have not even had a case of it. My holistic vet had COVID back in July of 2021. When she said she was 100 percent after the quarantine period, when I asked her, she mixed the dogs up, gave the wrong medication, told me she could not concentrate and was tired. She looked zombified. I would never have brought my dogs in to be handled by her for acupuncture and laser, had I known she had long covid which is "spike protein toxicity" It was after that my dogs went down in flames. The blood work showed it and so did their BEAM. Gabby also had developed within a week of seeing this vet a huge 8cm mass on her stifle. The vet had done acupuncture on that very spot 5 days earlier. I have seen pathologists who report the rouleaux blood formation pattern seen on dark scope microscopy in people. If you have any thoughts about how to block or detox the spike from dogs, making the assumption, they can get it, I would be interested. I don't know what is safe for them. I almost want to give Blossom proteolytic enzymes , like nattokinase, to dissolve any early clot formation (even though her platelets are normal now, the thick blood can cause clots) but nobody seems to know about this. That is what they are suggesting for people. Again, my two healthy dogs are dead within 6 months of each other with the development of bizarre and lethal characteristics.