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Cat suddenly can't urinate, listless, vomited

Dr. Jeff

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@SusanF started this great thread in the private area of the forum. She's graciously allowed me to move over here to the public forum, so everyone can see it, benefit from it, and share your input.

Susan started the thread with a beautiful example of posting on the forum:

  1. First time to post here... I finally figured out how to do this!! :)
  2. Your pet's name - Gracie
  3. Approximate age - unknown - 3-4 yrs?
  4. Sex - F
  5. Neutering status - spayed
  6. Breed - domestic short hair
  7. Approximate weight - 5-8 lbs? tiny
  8. What's their BEAM (behavior, energy, appetite, mood) - this afternoon and evening... very uncharacteristically listless, restless, can't urinate - keeps visiting her clean litter box, tho it was overdue for change earlier today - emptied, cleaned with Dr. Bronner Sal Suds replaced w/usual pine pellets only. Done every 2-3 days. Each kitty has their own condo with their own bed, water bowl, basket to hang out in and litter box. Not a community litter box.

    Loves food and not interested, quiet & withdrawn - normally very engaged, playful, and happy to be with us - very unlike her... licking her bum... sitting in what one vet years ago called "meatloaf" position. Keeps going into litterbox hoping to find right spot. Nothing. No poop. No pee.

  9. Diet - homemade fresh ground turkey, barely cooked, mixed with raw chicken eggs, organic canned pumpkin ... then small amounts frozen blueberries, cranberries, parsley, pepitas, seaweed, liquified in RO water in Vitamix + Dr. Andrew Jones' Ultimate Feline Supplement ... all mixed into turkey mix, then refrigerated, never reheated... just warmed up in pyrex bowl on counter, sometimes add 5 drops flax oil OR some homemade chicken broth to each dish. 2 meals/day. ~ 2oz each meal.

  10. Vaccination history / exposure to toxins, other medication - adopted maybe 3 yrs ago as outdoor stray after catch & release - someone else caught her - so she's spayed & had rabies vax. clipped ear - started hanging out in our yard where we fed her. finally caught her 2 yrs ago when we were moving house. indoor cat only since then with 3 other strays we've also had indoors 3-4 yrs longer. no one goes outside. no more dogs, so no fleas. no other vax or anything else.

    Never been to a vet since we've had her. Our holistic vet, Dr. Maria Williams (Dr. Jean knew her long time ago) passed away 14 Feb 2020... and we've been without holistic vet since. No one else in the area is holistic. So we are very careful with our kitties. We do have allopathic vet when Dr. Maria wasn't available and before we knew her. We do trust him "I'm a drug guy!" is what he said whenever we asked him years ago about something holistic. He's great...just allopathic only.

    Gave her 5 drops Amber Naturalz UTR herbal tincture twice today:

    1) in morning meal + 5 drops flax oil & 1/8 teaspoon Sari Foods acerola cherry Vit C powder ...
    2) early evening UTR + small portion of cranberry concentrate capsule mixed w/tiny amount of food + broth... she threw it up a while later.

    Just made some molasses oat water (recipe from Amber Naturalz) and have some Rescue Remedy to try and get some fluids into her in small syringe. We have homeopathic remedies. No idea what to try. Afraid to even give her more UTR or cranberry.

  11. Primary problem, when it began and if there was anything else happening around that time - as described above - not that we know of
  12. Is the condition better or worse from exercise, heat, cold, time of day, certain foods, emotional upset, being touched, excitement, etc? - no
  13. Has any diagnostic work been done? Diagnosis if available (you can attach your diagnostic tests to the post if you have them) - no
  14. Current and previous treatment - above
  15. Other health concerns - possible feline asthma - give her a Tablespoon of slippery elm tea sometimes mixed in her morning meal. run vaporizer with heat on indoors.
 

Dr. Jeff

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Then @Dr. Jean Hofve wrote:

Good job on posting, Susan, and also adding me to the conversation--I just happened to see the email notice as I was getting ready to log off! Sometimes the Universe knows how to get us to pay attention!

As a female cat, sounds like a UTI but it is very unlikely that she is blocked, even though you aren't seeing any pee in the box. Two reasons for that:
1. With a UTI, you feel like you have to pee all the time. So these kitties go, and go, and go, and since the bladder is empty, nothing comes out.
2. She is peeing somewhere else that you just haven't found, though again likely to only be a few drops.

I do notice that in her diet there is no calcium. That really has to be rectified immediately. There may be other deficiencies--B vitamins come to mind--though I'm not a nutritionist. Please find a balanced recipe or an adequate supplement (the one you're using is not).

This all concerns me because there could be pain or stress triggering the urinary symptoms. That she sits all meatloaf-ed up suggests discomfort.

If urinary symptoms were the only thing, we could probably help you get through that without much fuss, especially a young female kitty. BUT... the lethargy is very concerning.

Honestly I would recommend a vet visit to rule out something more serious. (Note that I tend to be a little more alarmist than the other vets on the list, but as a feline vet I have seen some really weird stuff!)

Please keep us posted!
 

Dr. Jeff

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Then Susan replied with pics of the supplement she uses and says:

So this is not an adequate source of calcium or other nutrients? How do we tell this is not appropriate?
Thank you so much, Dr. Jean. Appreciate your quick response. We'll try to get her to vet tomorrow. I think she is also constipated now. Nothing like this has happened before. We've had all these kitties and more on this diet for years. Everyone seems to be doing well on it, till now, anyway. We'll let you know.
 

Dr. Jeff

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Susan again wrote:

Last night we stayed up till 3am with her. Tom (hubs) came up with genius idea of giving her a little water (no salt added) from sardine can, diluted in RO water with a few drops of EVOO. We do add a small can of sardines or something similar to their food mix sometimes.

Well, she perked right up... slurped it all down and we gave her a little more, including 5 more drops of UTR, 5 drops of Rescue Remedy and one drop CBD.

This morning, there's a little sawdust in litter box, meaning some liquid had to be deposited in there. Still no poop, tho she's not getting in every few minutes and trying to eliminate. Much more relaxed and comfy this morning. Lounging in her bed, not meatloaf-ed now.

She's purring and engaged and thinks she oughta eat, tho the latest amount of water w/ sardine water + EVOO is still in dish. Not in a rush to add food yet.

Perched in her bed (highest level in her condo) and rolling around, purring, to be scratched under chin, get massaged all over and loving it... so this is a great sign! If i stop, she looks at me upside down to say, "hey, look at how cute i am, so please keep loving on me."

We'll get her to vet for exam. Tom thinks maybe we should ask vet to test for diabetes. She does normally drink a good amount of water considering there's a plenty in the food. It is dry in here with winter heat. So maybe it's just that.

Thanks for your support!

Update: Tom added a tiny amount of the sardines to the dish... and she's slurping and chowing it down.
 

Dr. Jeff

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Susan wrote:

Gracie ate a little bit of her normal food... and would love a lot more. 5 drops Rescue Remedy + 1 drop CBD along with the water, EVOO & sardine water + 5 drops UTR she never ate earlier.

She's relaxed and happy... tho she won't be when we get her into the carrier... in just a few minutes.
Taking her to our trustworthy allopathic vet shortly. It's nearly 2pm CT... and they're sneaking her in for 2:30pm.

later!
 

Dr. Jeff

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Dr. Jean:

So this is not an adequate source of calcium or other nutrients? How do we tell this is not appropriate?
Thank you so much, Dr. Jean. Appreciate your quick response. We'll try to get her to vet tomorrow. I think she is also constipated now. Nothing like this has happened before. We've had all these kitties and more on this diet for years. Everyone seems to be doing well on it, till now, anyway. We'll let you know.
This supplement is not made for adding to plain meat, and it does not claim to be. I have formulated many supplements like this myself. They are made for use with commercial pet food. All the amounts are tiny in order to avoid toxicity by over-supplementing food that already contains vitamins and minerals. Many commercial pet foods contain up to 4x more than pets need, so adding extra gets quite tricky with things that can be toxic, like Vitamin A, Vitamin D, and several minerals.

There are basic nutritional standards for cats here: nap.nationalacademies.org/resource/10668/cat_nutrition_final.pdf
The recommendation is 0.18 g or 180 mg of calcium per day for an average cat. If you're making cat food, my quickie measurement is one moderately heaping tablespoon of calcium per pound of meat. I use Standard Process Calcium Lactate, but any powdered calcium supplement will do.

There are supplements intended to make add to meat to make a balanced diet. Not sure if we have a list somewhere? I like BalanceIt Feline and Dr. Bob Goldstein's Raw Complete Powder.

I hope she does well at the vet and you get some helpful answers!
 

Dr. Jeff

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Susan:

Went to allopathic vet who said Gracie has nothing in bladder or colon so nothing to come out. Looks and acts fine. Heart and lungs sound fine. Not dehydrated yet. He doubts seriously that she has diabetes at her age. He told us how much water a diabetic cat might drink, and what she drinks is nothing even close.

She weighs 8.2 lbs. She's the most chill kitty we have ever had to ride in the car. (Only done it twice since we've had her.)

Said maybe she has UTI by our description from last night, so he gave us antibiotic Orbax. Amount to give her once/daily (liquid by mouth with food) for her weight. Not sure whether to actually give it to her or not. Pricey stuff. Made in Japan, formulated in Germany. Any input from anyone on it?

He didn't see any need to do blood work unless we wanted it. He'd have to take it from her neck, he said. Never heard of that before. Said he'd need a good amount and from her front leg, it'd be too little and would clot before they could analyze it. Other vets have machines that can do smaller quantities, he told us. We chose to not do that today.

Before we left for vet clinic, I finally got Gracie to finish the watery mix we had been offering her by sprinkling in a bit nooch (nutritional yeast from Sari.) Like magic. Our champion dish licker was back.

At Tom's suggestion, a little bit of turkey mix that other kitties were eating was what she wanted. Soon as we came home, i gave her several more little servings of it and she happily chowed them all down. 5 more drops UTR in one. Tiny amount molasses oat water from last night in a couple others. (Doc suggested pedialyte or gatorade for her, so this is our natural, homemade version.) Last night, she was not having it.

Seems to have finally peed a little in her litter box and is walking around the house behaving pretty normally again. Even came and sat on my office chair, where i call her the "squatter."
Not jumping around, tho she is between and around our feet again. Not hiding out or withdrawn as last night. So maybe we're okay.
 

SusanF

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Thank you, Dr. Jeff for moving this convo here. I had no idea how to do it and without your emailed link to me, i'd still not be over here. :)

Thanks to Dr. Jean's info on proper nutrition - been a decades-long journey for us. That is next step...

Gracie continues to improve and be very much her normal self. No Orbax given. Amber Naturalz UTR seems to be the magic elixir. Tom suggests we continue UTR a bit longer since there can still be pain for a while, even after urination returns. So, yeah.

One of our biggest issues has always been that no vets knew about Amber's organic herbal tinctures, so we've been alone in the dark about them. I discovered Amber more than 12 yrs ago when we had Chico the chihuahua with heart worms. When i read about the treatment we'd been instructed to give him, i realized that heart worms can be the same size in him and also in our bigger dogs. This harsh treatment might kill him! And we were supposed to keep him quiet?? Yeah, right. He was a happy and active little dude!!

So i found Ambertech (name at that time). Their products and protocol and phone support gave us a gentle, customized, powerful protocol that supported his organs during treatment. Took about six months since dosage goes by weight and he was tiny. When he was pronounced completely clear... and i asked them several times if they were absolutely certain... we were sold!!

Our big black lab, Lucy also contracted heart worms. She'd had them a shorter time, and was much larger, so we cured hers pretty fast with same program. I was so grateful, I soon became local home supplier for them. They had an online manual which i (thankfully!!) printed out and still refer to in 3 ring binder... with my many highlights and notes. Outdated now... still helpful.

Our third dog - shepherd/doberman mix - at that time never did get heart worms for whatever reason. Once we cured them, we used one of the products - HWF (Heart Worm Free) - in preventive protocol. None of them ever again had heart worms. We live where mosquitoes spread heart worms year round, so our preventive measures were year round, too.

Eventually, big vet pharma thru fda came down on Ambertech. Severely limited what they could call their products - i.e. Parvaid - which allowed us to save many parvo puppies had to be renamed something else. Still have it... same product on its third name. All very hush-hush... had no idea what on earth was going on there during that year or more. They couldn't talk about it. Still really can't.

No more actual phone support. No manual. Product descriptions suddenly had to become so vague that unless you can read between the lines, you really have no idea what they are or what they're for. Even if you can, unless you're a trained medical person, you still may have limited ability to use them.

All this to say that many of these herbal tinctures (mostly tinctures) have been on our animal medicine shelves for years and have not failed us.

Somehow, this small, family-owned and run biz in Utah is still around!

On Dr. Jean's recommendation, we took Gracie for exam with our allopathic vet. He sees us very rarely.

Amber Naturalz UTR (Urinary Tract Relief) seems to have once again, saved the day for us. I hope some of y'all will check them out. Their herbal products have been safe, gentle and so effective for us for over a dozen years. We'll never be without them.

Friday, i learned that they now offer training (nothing written!) for customers and more in depth for resellers and others, like vets, etc. who'd like to know more about their products. While THEY still can't dispense real info for pet parents, WE can!

Apparently, while we'd be so grateful for vets who know and use their products to help us with phone consults, unless we reside in state where they practice, they cannot consult with us. FYI.

Monday, i'll talk to the guy in charge of training, etc. Tom and i will get ourselves trained!!
 

Dr. Jeff

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You're welcome Susan, and thanks so much for continuing this conversation over here.

Yay for helping Gracie do what nature intends (heal naturally)! :snowman: ?

And thanks also for this great post. I too have been a big fan of Amberz since the Parvaid days.
they now offer training (nothing written!) for customers and more in depth for resellers and others, like vets
Wow, I did not know about this and will try to learn more! Maybe Tom can help me connect with someone.
 

SusanF

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Oh, that is GREAT NEWS, Dr. Jeff!! Wish i'd known that you could help us with Amber a long time ago.

Tom is my hubs and knows less than i do about Amber ... however, i spoke with Vanessa on Thurs just before our vet visit with Gracie. And Grant, late on Friday. Both told me that Aaron (ext 109) is the person to chat with on Monday about training. And that i will do... so both Tom and i can get some training.

So you're someone we can consult with on Amber AND homeopathy and whatever else holistically for our monthly consult if needed?? So sorry it's taken me a year to learn this. However... i'm ecstatic to know it now!!! You've just made my whole month, Dr. Jeff!! :D
 

GinnyW

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'Nother Parvaid person here; none of my dogs, but a few others I "treated". It is a nice soothing remedy even if there is no infection, too. Can you say "preventive"?
 

SusanF

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'Nother Parvaid person here; none of my dogs, but a few others I "treated". It is a nice soothing remedy even if there is no infection, too. Can you say "preventive"?
Yes!!! It worked as both effective treatment and preventive, dosed differently, of course.

Wait, sorry ... i'm thinking of HWF... which worked as both effective treatment (along with other Amber products in heart worm protocol)... and later as preventive, dosed differently.

NOT Parvaid. We also helped treat many parvo puppies (along with other Amber products) ... and had their parents save *uncontaminated* bottles of Parvaid for use later as something to give for occasional canine tummy upsets. We also, luckily, never had any of our own parvo puppies.

You know, Ginny... we DID use it sort of as preventive with parents who had sick parvo puppies and others in the house who'd been exposed and hadn't gotten sick yet. Just thought of it as early intervention...
 
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SusanF

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Dr. Jean:


This supplement is not made for adding to plain meat, and it does not claim to be. I have formulated many supplements like this myself. They are made for use with commercial pet food. All the amounts are tiny in order to avoid toxicity by over-supplementing food that already contains vitamins and minerals. Many commercial pet foods contain up to 4x more than pets need, so adding extra gets quite tricky with things that can be toxic, like Vitamin A, Vitamin D, and several minerals.

There are basic nutritional standards for cats here: nap.nationalacademies.org/resource/10668/cat_nutrition_final.pdf
The recommendation is 0.18 g or 180 mg of calcium per day for an average cat. If you're making cat food, my quickie measurement is one moderately heaping tablespoon of calcium per pound of meat. I use Standard Process Calcium Lactate, but any powdered calcium supplement will do.

There are supplements intended to make add to meat to make a balanced diet. Not sure if we have a list somewhere? I like BalanceIt Feline and Dr. Bob Goldstein's Raw Complete Powder.

I hope she does well at the vet and you get some helpful answers!
Dr. Jean:


This supplement is not made for adding to plain meat, and it does not claim to be. I have formulated many supplements like this myself. They are made for use with commercial pet food. All the amounts are tiny in order to avoid toxicity by over-supplementing food that already contains vitamins and minerals. Many commercial pet foods contain up to 4x more than pets need, so adding extra gets quite tricky with things that can be toxic, like Vitamin A, Vitamin D, and several minerals.

There are basic nutritional standards for cats here: nap.nationalacademies.org/resource/10668/cat_nutrition_final.pdf
The recommendation is 0.18 g or 180 mg of calcium per day for an average cat. If you're making cat food, my quickie measurement is one moderately heaping tablespoon of calcium per pound of meat. I use Standard Process Calcium Lactate, but any powdered calcium supplement will do.

There are supplements intended to make add to meat to make a balanced diet. Not sure if we have a list somewhere? I like BalanceIt Feline and Dr. Bob Goldstein's Raw Complete Powder.

I hope she does well at the vet and you get some helpful answers!
So we got the SP calcium lactate powder ... and took us a bit to sort out that 0.18 g or 180 mg (minus 37 mg in supplement we use = 143 mg to add) per cat daily is ~ 1.5 teaspoons of the powder we'll be adding to each ~7 lb batch of cat food we make.

I was thinking of your quickie measurement... would've been 7+ *Tablespoons* per batch of cat food we made. The bottle of powder wouldn't even last us a month. Seemed like a LOT of calcium to add.

Just in case anyone else is thinking to use this guide... your guide of 0.18 g or 180 mg per cat daily gave us the amount we needed. Thanks sooo much, Dr. Jean!!!
 

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