Not having much luck with Dr. Sagrera. Think I will contact Dr. Loops. This is the second bleed since saturday. Ieft message for Dr. S on sunday. Yesterday I called the office and got the direct emergency number. When I called the office yesterday and asked why I did not get a call back, I explained everything and they said write an email with everything you told us and they wold make it a priority. So I did. Today I called and they said Dr. S had about 8 appointments and several emergencies... I gave Gabby one red pill with her pale gums this morning and wanted Dr. S to advise me as to when to give the usual capsules. I did not give the orange pills yet that she usually gets. I gave her homeopathic phosphorus 30 c per the facebook group but wanted Dr. S's advice. Never heard back. I do not know if I am wasting time waiting to give the orange caps . I did not want to just give it after having gave the red pill at 10 AM. I did place a call to Dr. Bob (Jamie) per the webinar the other day. So maybe I can get some help there but it usually takes a while to set up consultations. BTW it was a great webinar full of good information.
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Hemangiosarcoma presumptive diagnosis
- Thread starter LilF
- Start date
I have *read* that one gives the orange pills along with the red, but that's not the way I did it. Dr. Sagrera also ran me through a bunch of different remedies each time Magic was bleeding, but then, I had the '50 remedy kit' from Washington Homeopathy (30c version).
I guess you need to get help where you can. The bleeding, as you recognize, is the main problem here If there's some way to get that under control, Gabby may just have a fighting chance. It was definitely what killed Magic.
All the best...
I guess you need to get help where you can. The bleeding, as you recognize, is the main problem here If there's some way to get that under control, Gabby may just have a fighting chance. It was definitely what killed Magic.
All the best...
It has been a really busy day just scrambling around making calls etc.... I did get a chance to make an appointment with Dr. Loops and they were very nice to answer my questions on the yunnan concerns and phosphorus I also talked to Jamie who Dr. Bob named on Monday's webinar, as someone who may be a source of information as to where to get help. I have been a customer of Earth Animal since 2005 so I believe I have talked to Jamie before . Without going into all the particulars I got some good information to follow up on. I had some old and expired Yunnan that came in a green box, probably purchased 7 years ago or so. Does anyone know if the authentic Yunnan came in a green box back then? I did get it from a reputable source then. Now the real stuff comes in a blue box... So I HAD been giving Gabby the stuff in the green box. I may start to syringe the mushrooms into Gabby but know she won't like it. Poor girl gets the Yunnan syringed.... I am going to check out the Empower Hour tonight, from Dr. Siegel, Glad for this topic at this particular time.... BTW, Gabby did like snuffle matting today with treats....eating plenty of those but snubbing her real food
I was told that for out-of-date Yunnan, one should probably increase the dosage, as it's still good, but it's probably lost some of its potency. Keep it -- maybe use it (3 or 4 capsules at a time) in a pinch? My understanding is that the stuff in the green box is packaged for overseas, and the stuff in the blue box is packaged for the US (so conforms to FDA regulations concerning the product insert). Otherwise there's no difference.
My second dog was the first that got cancer (and every dog since then has died of cancer....hm....). I kept her alive for a year and 3 months using multiple supplements (as well as enemas, since hers was an anal sac adenocarcenoma which spread to her abdomen and made both defecation and, eventually, urination quite difficult). To get the supplements down her, I used *all kinds* of different food stuffs: cream cheese, baby food, liver wurst, canned cat food, cooked and mashed chicken or beef liver, melted cheddar (very messy), ... just about anything that could be molded around a pill. At one point I had a pretty good inkling of what she'd take the pills in just by looking at her. Sometimes it took a trial run, and *then* the right choice would be made clear to me. If Gabby likes the food but is suspicious because of the pills, you can offer her a blob with no pill, then a blob with a pill, and immediately follow that with a blob with no pill (before she's had a chance to find the pill and spit it out). Also, you can try the jealousy route: if she rejects the blob with no pill, give that to your other dog!
VERY glad Gabby liked the snuffle mat. It's cool to watch the dogs search for the goodies. If the treats are good quality (e.g. freeze dried liver/gullet/etc.), just getting the calories down her is bonus. I'd just avoid treats with sugar or excess carbs -- but I'm sure you're doing that already!
My second dog was the first that got cancer (and every dog since then has died of cancer....hm....). I kept her alive for a year and 3 months using multiple supplements (as well as enemas, since hers was an anal sac adenocarcenoma which spread to her abdomen and made both defecation and, eventually, urination quite difficult). To get the supplements down her, I used *all kinds* of different food stuffs: cream cheese, baby food, liver wurst, canned cat food, cooked and mashed chicken or beef liver, melted cheddar (very messy), ... just about anything that could be molded around a pill. At one point I had a pretty good inkling of what she'd take the pills in just by looking at her. Sometimes it took a trial run, and *then* the right choice would be made clear to me. If Gabby likes the food but is suspicious because of the pills, you can offer her a blob with no pill, then a blob with a pill, and immediately follow that with a blob with no pill (before she's had a chance to find the pill and spit it out). Also, you can try the jealousy route: if she rejects the blob with no pill, give that to your other dog!
VERY glad Gabby liked the snuffle mat. It's cool to watch the dogs search for the goodies. If the treats are good quality (e.g. freeze dried liver/gullet/etc.), just getting the calories down her is bonus. I'd just avoid treats with sugar or excess carbs -- but I'm sure you're doing that already!
@AlysonR I thought I would rotate the expired and the new Yunnan and not mess around during a bleed with the old stuff. Good thoughts, glad they make sense as far as the box color goes. Maybe years ago they all came in a green box until the change with the FDA. I know my source was reliable back then.
So as Dr. Dressler, author of the Dog Cancer Survival Guide would say you increased your dog's "gained life expectancy" with all your care. Were you working with an integrative vet because to do the enemas seems advanced for the average person to know how to do with a dog. I am going to try the liverwurst with Gabby and get some other meats to rotate so she doesn't get tired of one thing. I did the bait and switch thing with her and the fast hand you describe with the meat. Guess what? I got 2 artemisinin capsules in her and 4 I'M Yunity mushroom caps in her... I was so happy that she took something that can actually make a difference in her trajectory. I hope to keep it up and offer pills through out the day. I tried to shove the meat farther back into her mouth so she has to swallow fast. I wish she would eat a meal though. I never felt her diet was balanced since she was diagnosed with the Protein Losing Enteropathy, ergo... cancer snuck in. IMO
BTW. Dr. Sagrera sent an email saying I should try lochesis but did not say how many pellets. I do not have that here so will get it tomorrow but Gabby's gums seem pinker already and her BEAM is better with searching out the snuffle mat, was waiting in the kitchen for food (even though she didn't eat the meal, only the Ziwi Peak). You're a super pup mom using everything at your disposal to extend your dogs lives....I know how crushing losing them ultimately is....You fought the good fight every time.... Thanks for sharing the particulars. Paws crossed for more pills down the hatch tomorrow.
So as Dr. Dressler, author of the Dog Cancer Survival Guide would say you increased your dog's "gained life expectancy" with all your care. Were you working with an integrative vet because to do the enemas seems advanced for the average person to know how to do with a dog. I am going to try the liverwurst with Gabby and get some other meats to rotate so she doesn't get tired of one thing. I did the bait and switch thing with her and the fast hand you describe with the meat. Guess what? I got 2 artemisinin capsules in her and 4 I'M Yunity mushroom caps in her... I was so happy that she took something that can actually make a difference in her trajectory. I hope to keep it up and offer pills through out the day. I tried to shove the meat farther back into her mouth so she has to swallow fast. I wish she would eat a meal though. I never felt her diet was balanced since she was diagnosed with the Protein Losing Enteropathy, ergo... cancer snuck in. IMO
BTW. Dr. Sagrera sent an email saying I should try lochesis but did not say how many pellets. I do not have that here so will get it tomorrow but Gabby's gums seem pinker already and her BEAM is better with searching out the snuffle mat, was waiting in the kitchen for food (even though she didn't eat the meal, only the Ziwi Peak). You're a super pup mom using everything at your disposal to extend your dogs lives....I know how crushing losing them ultimately is....You fought the good fight every time.... Thanks for sharing the particulars. Paws crossed for more pills down the hatch tomorrow.
If Dr. Sagrera doesn't say how to dose explicitly, just do the same thing she said to do before -- crush some (3-6) pillules between two spoons (don't touch the remedy with your hands, so dump the pillules into the cap first -- so that you can dump some back if you get too many) and tip the spoon into her cheek to get a bunch of dust on her gums. (I believe that's what you said you did before.) Two things to remember with homeopathy: 1) dose is more time dependent than quantity dependent, and 2) the more dilute the remedy, the stronger it is (and also, it may act on a different level, so may not be what you want).
If Gabby eats nothing but Ziwi Peak for the next month, I don't think it'll be a problem as far as the cancer goes (don't know about the other issue). If Ziwi Peak makes her happy, that's the important part. My guess is she'll get tired of it, eventually, and you'll be on to the next thing. Don't buy in bulk
. There are lots of choices out there. So long as you don't precipitate a sudden crisis (like feeding chocolate -- shudder), I say mix it up as much as you can. If you need to add a little pumpkin to keep her from getting diarrhea, so be it.
I did work with a holistic vet for a couple of months when I was going through cancer with my second dog, Samantha. He sent me to a guy who does ultrasound, and that guy said, "She's dying." I looked at my happy dog as I walked out of his office and decided he was wrong. I stopped working with that vet (Carvel Tiekert, FYI), and I went out on my own. My regular vet was the one who taught me about the enemas. And since Samantha *loved* to travel, we took several trips during that final year. Even at the end, she didn't want to die, but it was time, as the last 24 hours (and they would have been her last, regardless) would not have been anything she or I would have wanted to experience, as her urethra was blocked at that point. But she did live a year and 3 months past her diagnosis/surgery, and she lived it quite happily, taking 30-40 pills a day (even some in the middle of the night). It's not for every dog to do that. Some dogs are ready to go quickly, as my dog with hemangiosarcoma of the heart was. The trick is to listen to what your dog is telling you.
If Gabby eats nothing but Ziwi Peak for the next month, I don't think it'll be a problem as far as the cancer goes (don't know about the other issue). If Ziwi Peak makes her happy, that's the important part. My guess is she'll get tired of it, eventually, and you'll be on to the next thing. Don't buy in bulk
. There are lots of choices out there. So long as you don't precipitate a sudden crisis (like feeding chocolate -- shudder), I say mix it up as much as you can. If you need to add a little pumpkin to keep her from getting diarrhea, so be it.I did work with a holistic vet for a couple of months when I was going through cancer with my second dog, Samantha. He sent me to a guy who does ultrasound, and that guy said, "She's dying." I looked at my happy dog as I walked out of his office and decided he was wrong. I stopped working with that vet (Carvel Tiekert, FYI), and I went out on my own. My regular vet was the one who taught me about the enemas. And since Samantha *loved* to travel, we took several trips during that final year. Even at the end, she didn't want to die, but it was time, as the last 24 hours (and they would have been her last, regardless) would not have been anything she or I would have wanted to experience, as her urethra was blocked at that point. But she did live a year and 3 months past her diagnosis/surgery, and she lived it quite happily, taking 30-40 pills a day (even some in the middle of the night). It's not for every dog to do that. Some dogs are ready to go quickly, as my dog with hemangiosarcoma of the heart was. The trick is to listen to what your dog is telling you.
If Dr. Sagrera doesn't say how to dose explicitly, just do the same thing she said to do before -- crush some (3-6) pillules between two spoons (don't touch the remedy with your hands, so dump the pillules into the cap first -- so that you can dump some back if you get too many) and tip the spoon into her cheek to get a bunch of dust on her gums. (I believe that's what you said you did before.) Two things to remember with homeopathy: 1) dose is more time dependent than quantity dependent, and 2) the more dilute the remedy, the stronger it is (and also, it may act on a different level, so may not be what you want).
If Gabby eats nothing but Ziwi Peak for the next month, I don't think it'll be a problem as far as the cancer goes (don't know about the other issue). If Ziwi Peak makes her happy, that's the important part. My guess is she'll get tired of it, eventually, and you'll be on to the next thing. Don't buy in bulk
I did work with a holistic vet for a couple of months when I was going through cancer with my second dog, Samantha. He sent me to a guy who does ultrasound, and that guy said, "She's dying." I looked at my happy dog as I walked out of his office and decided he was wrong. I stopped working with that vet (Carvel Tiekert, FYI), and I went out on my own. My regular vet was the one who taught me about the enemas. And since Samantha *loved* to travel, we took several trips during that final year. Even at the end, she didn't want to die, but it was time, as the last 24 hours (and they would have been her last, regardless) would not have been anything she or I would have wanted to experience, as her urethra was blocked at that point. But she did live a year and 3 months past her diagnosis/surgery, and she lived it quite happily, taking 30-40 pills a day (even some in the middle of the night). It's not for every dog to do that. Some dogs are ready to go quickly, as my dog with hemangiosarcoma of the heart was. The trick is to listen to what your dog is telling you.
Sorry to say that Gabby figured out the pills are in the meat and spits them out. Has been doing that for a couple days. I did syringe the mushrooms once but it must have tasted terrible. Seems each day is another dive. Right now I do not know if her laying around is because of a bleed or quite frankly from lack of food over the past couple week. Her gums are somewhat pink and have trouble deciding about the red pill. I have held off and just giving her the usual 2 caps 3 times today of the Yunnan. So I made some bone broth and syringed it. I syringed a product called Rebound, and syringed some RxVitamins Amino B's, I think the not eating has caught up with her. I do not know what to do right now. I cannot keep up. My internet was out all day and I could not get any information on her condition. I called the vet, it was a fill in vet and she wasn't sure about giving fluids. She offered Prednisone but how do I get THAT in her and what does that do for her? Does anyone have an opinion about fluids, IV feeding or anything to perk her up? Today I got a rememdy in the mail called Carunosin plus 200c Nobody ever says what the remedy is actually for. Does anyone know? I am going to give it tomorrow, twice. I also have some cell salts combo 2x What do either of these things do and will it make a difference short term. Gabby would not even eat kibble like she wanted a few days ago. No lunch meat either. Tomorrow is sunday, should I take her for IV feeding, fluids or whatever to strengthen her? Any thoughts would be appreciated.
As long as Gabby is still eating the pill wrap, you can give her the wrapped pill, then immediately (before she has a chance to feel around to unwrap the pill) follow it up with something she loves -- maybe just another piece of the same meat, or maybe something even better. The idea is for her to be eager enough for the follow up treat that she'll just swallow whatever is currently in her mouth.
Aside from a few remedies (like Arnica, Rhus Tox, Hypiricum (sp?)), I rarely know exactly what the remedy is for. That's why I trust a homeopath to tell me what to give. What made you order Carunosin plus 200c? Why do you think you'd need to give it twice? (200c, BTW, is a fairly strong potency.)
Prednisone is not something I would give in this situation. First off, it's a steroid, so it would negate anything you're trying to do with homeopathy. Secondly, it suppresses the immune system, also something you don't want to do. Honestly, I haven't a clue why any vet would offer Prednisone -- maybe for pain, but I suspect Gabby is uncomfortable from the bleeding (don't know for sure), but not actually in pain.
Remember that digesting food also requires an energy expenditure. I like the idea of offering bone broth -- if she'll drink it on her own. Is there anything besides the cancer that is making her not want to eat? I never found the mushrooms to do that, but then I didn't have my dogs on them for very long.
In all honesty, if *I* were taking care of Gabby, I think I'd have let her go. But I don't know her personality, and I don't know your commitment. I just know, from what you are telling me, that she's not happy, at least, not right now. I was able to go a year and three months with Samantha because she really wanted to live (even at the very end). For River, who had a hemangiosarcoma of the heart, when he entered the vet's office for the second time, after 6 really good weeks, he was ready to go. He told me and I let him. There was a look in his eyes. We walked outside, he took in the world with his nose, and when I turned to go back in, he came with me quite willingly. He lay down on the blanket with a look that said, "let's do it." And we did. Broke my heart. These things always do. But it was what *he* wanted. For Magic, sadly, I was out of homeopathic miracles, and she understood that. It was not a pretty ending, but she'd been loved -- still is -- and she knew it. She knew her time had come. This is hard to write. How do you know when it's time? People have differing opinions on this, but know that you need to listen to Gabby. If she's telling you she wants to live, then you need to find all of the possible ways you can to support her. If she's telling you she's done, then you need to let her go. Listen to _her_.
Unless Gabby's going into shock, hold off on the red pill -- at least, that's what I've been told. If she starts shaking, going cold, gums white, .... that's when the red pill should be given. You're already giving her a super high dose of Yunnan Baiyao...
Aside from a few remedies (like Arnica, Rhus Tox, Hypiricum (sp?)), I rarely know exactly what the remedy is for. That's why I trust a homeopath to tell me what to give. What made you order Carunosin plus 200c? Why do you think you'd need to give it twice? (200c, BTW, is a fairly strong potency.)
Prednisone is not something I would give in this situation. First off, it's a steroid, so it would negate anything you're trying to do with homeopathy. Secondly, it suppresses the immune system, also something you don't want to do. Honestly, I haven't a clue why any vet would offer Prednisone -- maybe for pain, but I suspect Gabby is uncomfortable from the bleeding (don't know for sure), but not actually in pain.
Remember that digesting food also requires an energy expenditure. I like the idea of offering bone broth -- if she'll drink it on her own. Is there anything besides the cancer that is making her not want to eat? I never found the mushrooms to do that, but then I didn't have my dogs on them for very long.
In all honesty, if *I* were taking care of Gabby, I think I'd have let her go. But I don't know her personality, and I don't know your commitment. I just know, from what you are telling me, that she's not happy, at least, not right now. I was able to go a year and three months with Samantha because she really wanted to live (even at the very end). For River, who had a hemangiosarcoma of the heart, when he entered the vet's office for the second time, after 6 really good weeks, he was ready to go. He told me and I let him. There was a look in his eyes. We walked outside, he took in the world with his nose, and when I turned to go back in, he came with me quite willingly. He lay down on the blanket with a look that said, "let's do it." And we did. Broke my heart. These things always do. But it was what *he* wanted. For Magic, sadly, I was out of homeopathic miracles, and she understood that. It was not a pretty ending, but she'd been loved -- still is -- and she knew it. She knew her time had come. This is hard to write. How do you know when it's time? People have differing opinions on this, but know that you need to listen to Gabby. If she's telling you she wants to live, then you need to find all of the possible ways you can to support her. If she's telling you she's done, then you need to let her go. Listen to _her_.
Unless Gabby's going into shock, hold off on the red pill -- at least, that's what I've been told. If she starts shaking, going cold, gums white, .... that's when the red pill should be given. You're already giving her a super high dose of Yunnan Baiyao...
@AlysonR I am stunned by the wonderful care you gave your dogs, the quality of life. You really covered the happiness component in their management. And the vet that said what he said---good for you to get that energy out of your sphere....As an aside, we are ALL dying from the moment we are born...wish you could have told him that one.... that HE was dying too. So, I read about the Carunosin and it says that it is not to be given with cancer but a preventive to cancer. Also said it thins the blood. Maybe the lachesis is more appropriate? I will give the cell salts, that one looked safe. So the problem here is that I know next to nothing about homeopathy so if someone mentions a remedy I do not have a way to cross check with my own knowledge like I do with other alternative options. What I read said that it can make cancer worse. Dr. Sagrera wasn't real available for emergencies so I looked into another homeopath but thinking of scrapping the whole thing now since the first remedy did nothing. I always like to know WHAT is being treated by the remedy and nobody ever says, they just say to give it to her. I don't usually roll that way with things as you might have already guessed
This morning Gabby's BEAM was much better but belly is rather bloated, (could it be the sodium in the packaged lunchmeat, she often ate the whole package, each 2 slices is 380 mg sodium. She is going up stairs, looking out the window, went out to poop (solid ) . Yesterday I gave her the Rebound (only 20 mg) in a syringe and RX vitamin 3 ml of the Amino B's formula. Gave her bone broth I made all day from a knuckle bone. She doesn't look as forlorn as last night. I was up till 1PM when I gave her a 2 cap dose of Yunnan.
What was Magic's wt and dose of that btw. the hospital said 2 caps three times a day. I had cut it to 2 caps 2 times a day but then upped it. I hear different things, to keep the high dose for a day or two after a bleed.
So she is 180 different today... Yesterday I was thinking of when and how etc.. to euth, today is a different story. Will see if she wants to walk and sniff a bit later . I am trying to get some of my internet stuff done because it usually goes out.
I just popped some cell salts into her mouth. What is the lachesis for? I wonder if I should give her the Entyce to stimulate her to eat. I read the package insert and it says it increases growth hormone. I always thought in human medicine that HGH stimulates tumors to grow and that it should be low. So I asked the one vet about it and she said the product was developed for cancer patients. So now it is confusing. Will try to give the RX vitamins for sure and not sure about the Rebound, although she DID rebound some.
This morning Gabby's BEAM was much better but belly is rather bloated, (could it be the sodium in the packaged lunchmeat, she often ate the whole package, each 2 slices is 380 mg sodium. She is going up stairs, looking out the window, went out to poop (solid ) . Yesterday I gave her the Rebound (only 20 mg) in a syringe and RX vitamin 3 ml of the Amino B's formula. Gave her bone broth I made all day from a knuckle bone. She doesn't look as forlorn as last night. I was up till 1PM when I gave her a 2 cap dose of Yunnan.
What was Magic's wt and dose of that btw. the hospital said 2 caps three times a day. I had cut it to 2 caps 2 times a day but then upped it. I hear different things, to keep the high dose for a day or two after a bleed.
So she is 180 different today... Yesterday I was thinking of when and how etc.. to euth, today is a different story. Will see if she wants to walk and sniff a bit later . I am trying to get some of my internet stuff done because it usually goes out.
I just popped some cell salts into her mouth. What is the lachesis for? I wonder if I should give her the Entyce to stimulate her to eat. I read the package insert and it says it increases growth hormone. I always thought in human medicine that HGH stimulates tumors to grow and that it should be low. So I asked the one vet about it and she said the product was developed for cancer patients. So now it is confusing. Will try to give the RX vitamins for sure and not sure about the Rebound, although she DID rebound some.
Wow! So glad Gabby's having another good day!! Cherish each and every one of them.
To answer some of your questions:
1) Magic was about 45-50 lbs., and I was told (by the emergency vet and, later, by Dr. Sagrera) to use 2 capsules, twice a day, but I always wondered if I could have upped it. Apparently, based on your experience, I could have. I don't know if it's possible to O.D. on the stuff. Do what works.
2) The bloated belly, unfortunately, is *probably* blood, but if it doesn't continue to grow, that's OK. The body does have an amazing ability heal itself. Keep the walk low key. Someone suggested to me using a wagon to keep the amount of exercise low and still allow her to sniff. Another dog I had die of cancer (this time of the duodenum) had surgery, came home and insisted on climbing the stairs and coming back down on her own and going outside. I was torn between what would help her heal vs. what would keep her spirits up. As it turned out, the surgery wasn't successful, in the sense that she still ended up vomiting what I gave her to eat, so she only lived another day, anyway. But...I really feel for Magic, if I'd treated her more like a dog recovering from a delicate surgery from the get-go, the bleeding might not have returned so quickly. That's the trick!
3) The good thing about homeopathy is that, generally, it's pretty hard to do any harm by choosing the wrong remedy. Check out: Adverse effects in homeopathy. A systematic review and meta-analysis of observational studies. That said,
using multiple remedies in quick succession is not recommended. Why are you considering Lachesis? As you say, since you're having a hard time getting good guidance on the homeopathy, and you don't have a history of working with it, you might want to ditch it. There are plenty of holistic vets who use other modalities. Again, it's a matter of how much time you've got (and Gabby's got).
4) If you're really worried about getting her to eat, then the Entyce might be something to try. Apparently it stimulates the appetite in most (but not all) dogs. A cursory glance through what's on the internet seems to indicate it's safe for cancer patients -- and again, we get into the question of short term vs. long term.
To answer some of your questions:
1) Magic was about 45-50 lbs., and I was told (by the emergency vet and, later, by Dr. Sagrera) to use 2 capsules, twice a day, but I always wondered if I could have upped it. Apparently, based on your experience, I could have. I don't know if it's possible to O.D. on the stuff. Do what works.
2) The bloated belly, unfortunately, is *probably* blood, but if it doesn't continue to grow, that's OK. The body does have an amazing ability heal itself. Keep the walk low key. Someone suggested to me using a wagon to keep the amount of exercise low and still allow her to sniff. Another dog I had die of cancer (this time of the duodenum) had surgery, came home and insisted on climbing the stairs and coming back down on her own and going outside. I was torn between what would help her heal vs. what would keep her spirits up. As it turned out, the surgery wasn't successful, in the sense that she still ended up vomiting what I gave her to eat, so she only lived another day, anyway. But...I really feel for Magic, if I'd treated her more like a dog recovering from a delicate surgery from the get-go, the bleeding might not have returned so quickly. That's the trick!
3) The good thing about homeopathy is that, generally, it's pretty hard to do any harm by choosing the wrong remedy. Check out: Adverse effects in homeopathy. A systematic review and meta-analysis of observational studies. That said,
using multiple remedies in quick succession is not recommended. Why are you considering Lachesis? As you say, since you're having a hard time getting good guidance on the homeopathy, and you don't have a history of working with it, you might want to ditch it. There are plenty of holistic vets who use other modalities. Again, it's a matter of how much time you've got (and Gabby's got).
4) If you're really worried about getting her to eat, then the Entyce might be something to try. Apparently it stimulates the appetite in most (but not all) dogs. A cursory glance through what's on the internet seems to indicate it's safe for cancer patients -- and again, we get into the question of short term vs. long term.
@AlysonR I am happy to report that Gabby is having an EVEN BETTER day today..... The bloating seemed to have gone down markedly. Her gums have been pink so wonder if it was blood or fluid? Again, she ate the lunchmeat slices with high sodium But I should fess up here.... So Dr. Sargrera prescribed the Lachesis but I had no idea what it was for... by the time I heard from her on tuesday , I think the saturday bleed had been resolved. So I contacted Dr. Koops and have a consult tomorrow. He sent me some Cell Salt Combo which I dosed Gabby for a few days... Is it that making a difference? He was the one who prescribed the carunosin. I know nothing about homeopathy. I decided to talk to him before I give it. He now has Gabby's information. I saw on his website or some dogs naturally article that he has worked a lot with dogs with hemangiosarcoma. I had looked into him months ago as I was on the fence about homeopathy and never actually initiated anything. If you want I can send you the dogs naturally article if I can find it again. He was very nice, they sent me the formula with clear directions and sent me some Yunnan so I don't run out. They did offer what to give through the bleed. They said they use phosphorus and arnica. I am excited to talk to him and see what he has to offer. In short, my mantra is always : Information calms me..... I have to know what something is doing and why I am giving something to her. Dr. S was not available. I called her saturday and no response till an email on tuesday. I did have to move on.... When I called the office they said she had 8 appointments and 6 emergencies before me (my emergency was from saturday) As you know time is of the essence in this terrible diagnosis. I am moving fast as I can... (Wish I had the tools available per the empower hour, Dr. Marlene Siegel at my disposal----makes me sad that my dog could have a better chance with her help ) Don't think there is time to go through the rigamaroll of convincing a vet of mine to do a consult and then how long before I can get the home equipment.... It was an awesome webinar and hope you got to see it.
Gabby went for a walk today and enjoyed being outside. She is still not eating and I am syringing some Honest Kitchen meal enhancer mixed with the bone broth I made. I need to get some balance in things... I did syringe RxVitamins Amino B's and Vitamin D. I tried to syringe the Rx vitamins Hepato Support but the liquid is so sticky I could not get it out of the dropper. Trying to figure how to do the mushrooms. I did dissolve them in some broth but didn't have the heart to give them to her because they were still so vile tasting. I know she needs them.
Your experience is so very helpful and supportive. I feel sorry when you describe the hardships you and your dogs endured but bittersweet how well you gave them quality of life for so long living WITH their cancers. If you saw the empower hour you saw that 1 in 2 dogs will get cancer.... It is heartbreaking. Know that with your posts to me that you will be helping another who is going through this devastating illness. You have helped me through the variable tides that shift from day to day and thank you for that
Gabby went for a walk today and enjoyed being outside. She is still not eating and I am syringing some Honest Kitchen meal enhancer mixed with the bone broth I made. I need to get some balance in things... I did syringe RxVitamins Amino B's and Vitamin D. I tried to syringe the Rx vitamins Hepato Support but the liquid is so sticky I could not get it out of the dropper. Trying to figure how to do the mushrooms. I did dissolve them in some broth but didn't have the heart to give them to her because they were still so vile tasting. I know she needs them.
Your experience is so very helpful and supportive. I feel sorry when you describe the hardships you and your dogs endured but bittersweet how well you gave them quality of life for so long living WITH their cancers. If you saw the empower hour you saw that 1 in 2 dogs will get cancer.... It is heartbreaking. Know that with your posts to me that you will be helping another who is going through this devastating illness. You have helped me through the variable tides that shift from day to day and thank you for that
Wow. Sounds Dr. Koops (Loops?) is giving some very good information, since Gabby seems to be responding to it. I have no idea what's helping Gabby. Phos and Arnica are good for bleeding (as are many other remedies). When you talk to him, check with him about what you should be doing for emergency bleeds -- and at which levels (there's discomfort, and then there's shock, for instance). Write your questions down now so you'll have them to ask if he doesn't answer them initially.
Mushrooms... does Gabby like cream cheese? Liver? If she does, you could try mixing some powdered dried liver into some cream cheese (use a blender or spice grinder to powder the liver if you have to), make a patty of some with an indentation, pour *some* (maybe a small amount initially?) of an open capsule into the indentation and top with more of the cream cheese mixture?!? I'd still do the "offer that and then a non-adulterated pat of the cream cheese mixture immediately after" to get her to swallow it quickly. You could also do something like that with slightly melted cheddar mixed with, say, powdered freeze-dried dog food of some sort (Stella & Chewy, or Bravo?). It's all about making some sort of irresistible paste.
Dr Siegel's array of treatment options I found to be a bit confusing, and I'm wondering greatly at which one would try for any given condition, as well as the research behind them and how often they work (not to mention expense).
I keep feeling like when we die, someone will be there with the answers to the "test", telling us all about how cancer occurs and how to cure it. All too late, of course... Anyway, each situation is unique. You're heading into uncharted territory, but as long as Gabby's having more good days than bad, go for it!
Mushrooms... does Gabby like cream cheese? Liver? If she does, you could try mixing some powdered dried liver into some cream cheese (use a blender or spice grinder to powder the liver if you have to), make a patty of some with an indentation, pour *some* (maybe a small amount initially?) of an open capsule into the indentation and top with more of the cream cheese mixture?!? I'd still do the "offer that and then a non-adulterated pat of the cream cheese mixture immediately after" to get her to swallow it quickly. You could also do something like that with slightly melted cheddar mixed with, say, powdered freeze-dried dog food of some sort (Stella & Chewy, or Bravo?). It's all about making some sort of irresistible paste.
Dr Siegel's array of treatment options I found to be a bit confusing, and I'm wondering greatly at which one would try for any given condition, as well as the research behind them and how often they work (not to mention expense).
I keep feeling like when we die, someone will be there with the answers to the "test", telling us all about how cancer occurs and how to cure it. All too late, of course... Anyway, each situation is unique. You're heading into uncharted territory, but as long as Gabby's having more good days than bad, go for it!
@AlysonR Sorry for the delay in updating... internet out all day again! Hard to keep up with info to help my dog which is my main frustration with it. I did speak with Dr., yes LOOPS, not KOOPS as I posted--- He thought that Gabby was probably having low level bleeds most of the time. He is sending me some remedies. I asked about an emergency number in case there is a reaction. Gabby is so sensitive to things, she could not take adequan because it made her stomach upset. So they said I could double the dilution for the first few days. If she has a bad reaction it will work itself out of the system, no antidote needed. Like you, he was not in favor of prednisone. He also said it could raise her blood pressure. He said to NOT give her the carunosin right now that I mentioned earlier. He said he would send me some other things first. But he said that he has never had a problem using it with cancer when I told him I read it was for prevention and so I was concerned to use it. Gabby is still not eating well. Been syringing the Honest Kitchen meal enhancers mixed with bone broth I made up. It takes forever. I am using 5 ml syringes. I need something bigger. I looked at turkey basters today and they were a hard plastic and did not purchase as I did not want them to crack in her mouth as she bites down. So she would not take a food even as yummy as you describe to make it. I offered her a sliver of cheese, she took it once and then no more. Offered her canned food today in little meatball sizes and no go, the other day she licked the plate. She took a couple pieces of lunchmeat today and then no more. She was off kilter all day. Yesterday we walked an hour at the park---nothing fast, just sniffing and walking slow. She wanted to continue and go longer. Her belly was more bloated today and lethargic. Gave her two caps of Yunnan twice today and once with 3 caps. It was after the 3 caps she perked up...hmmmm. yet gums were not really pale. Dr. Loops said that she could still be bleeding even with gums pinked up, i.e. low level bleeds... Said I could give the phosphorus 30 C in between Yunnan doses...I am thinking shorter walks for her because she walked up the street earlier in the day... She WANTS to go. Dr. Loops also said it was strange she doesn't want to eat ever. He said most dogs he worked with that have hemangio won't eat during a bleed but will eat otherwise. One of my neighbors dogs that I watched while they went on vacation in 2014 had hemangio and she did eat her meals and treats readily. So maybe Gabby is bleeding more or the Protein Losing Enteropathy is playing a role. Yesterday I put the mushrooms and artemisinin in a syringe (YUCKO) and syringed it ....no way to make that taste acceptable. There were a couple times I felt her tremble in the upper body. Today it was cold but she just went from the car into the house and laid down and saw her tremble. Do you know what that is from? It happened another time when it was time for bed, she climbed some stairs and I pet her and she was trembling. I could feel it more than see it. Tomorrow we see the vet who does laser and acupuncture, (she is not getting either treatment only medical management stuff) she is kind of holistic but not totally, just for some reassurance before the holiday which scares the begeevers out of me with no access to care other than hospital. She seemed to have no real positive reaction to the B12 shot last week or no real result from fluids the time before. Another vet told me that fluids can drive the albumin down if the albumin/globulin ratio is off. I know she has a history of low albumin with the PLE so will stay away from fluids too I guess. Another thing she started to do occasionally is cough... Hope all that syringing did not cause aspiration pneumonia. She enjoys her walks and being around me and car rides. I might start giving her the entyce again and maybe mirtazapine. My life would be easier to use treats instead of syringing. She seems to be getting used to all the stuff but it is sad I have to do things this way.
Magic trembled a couple of times, too. That's the beginnings of shock. If you've got an emergency homeopathic remedy for shock, you should give that. Also, massage her ears, especially the tips -- not too hard. Like you were stroking a rose pedal, maybe a little harder. Going up hill and going up stairs take a lot of energy, raise blood pressure, probably cause more bleeding. Maybe try breaks during her walk -- still outside, but sitting? Winter is a heck of a time to be sitting outside, but the walking about is definitely not helping her tumor stop bleeding. Keep her away from hills and stairs. If she wants to go up stairs, pick her up and take her up.
Honestly, *I* have always taken the not eating as a sign the dog has given up. You need to have a heart-to-heart chat with Gabby about what you are able to do for her, and what her part in all this is. The swollen stomach is definitely a sign of more bleeding, and that's got to stop before she'll have an appetite. She isn't feeling she is getting better, or even holding steady. If you have a certain confidence that this is a trough and things will start to get better once you get to the other side, you need to project that to her.
There are things I did towards the ends of my dogs' lives that I have since regretted. They were done out of a lack of understanding, but I still wish I'd handled things differently. Right before River was diagnosed with hemangiosarcoma of the heart, I tried to give him some sort of diuretic and something else for a whole weekend so that I could wait for the referral vet on Monday. I didn't know he had cancer, but he WAS miserable that entire weekend, and he didn't want to take the pills. He could barely breathe with all the fluid around his heart. Shadow, my Mom's dog whom I adopted when my Mom died, had acute lymphocytic leukemia. One night, I kept her downstairs in the coldest part of the house because she kept trying to go outside in the middle of the night (in the middle of winter) and I thought she preferred to be cold. I think she was ready to leave me even then, and her desire to stay outside in the freezing cold probably had nothing to do with wanting to be cold. But again, that was before I knew she had cancer. Handling death well is just as important as handling life well. Think carefully about where this is all headed.
Honestly, *I* have always taken the not eating as a sign the dog has given up. You need to have a heart-to-heart chat with Gabby about what you are able to do for her, and what her part in all this is. The swollen stomach is definitely a sign of more bleeding, and that's got to stop before she'll have an appetite. She isn't feeling she is getting better, or even holding steady. If you have a certain confidence that this is a trough and things will start to get better once you get to the other side, you need to project that to her.
There are things I did towards the ends of my dogs' lives that I have since regretted. They were done out of a lack of understanding, but I still wish I'd handled things differently. Right before River was diagnosed with hemangiosarcoma of the heart, I tried to give him some sort of diuretic and something else for a whole weekend so that I could wait for the referral vet on Monday. I didn't know he had cancer, but he WAS miserable that entire weekend, and he didn't want to take the pills. He could barely breathe with all the fluid around his heart. Shadow, my Mom's dog whom I adopted when my Mom died, had acute lymphocytic leukemia. One night, I kept her downstairs in the coldest part of the house because she kept trying to go outside in the middle of the night (in the middle of winter) and I thought she preferred to be cold. I think she was ready to leave me even then, and her desire to stay outside in the freezing cold probably had nothing to do with wanting to be cold. But again, that was before I knew she had cancer. Handling death well is just as important as handling life well. Think carefully about where this is all headed.
@AlysonR I am going to write more later to your post but my internet was out all day yesterday which made me unable to access important info for Gabby. Dang internet company-----really really upset as I continued to try and get it to work... I made the decision to let her go yesterday afternoon. I wanted to send you this post to let you know while my internet was on.. Again will explain it all later if it is working. I talked to friend of mine that does rescue in PA and he told me that when they stop eating, his vets always said it was time. Gabby had not eaten much for a while. Gabby loved her walking and it would have been hard for me to limit it like you said I should in your post. Maybe shorter walks. Even right before I put her in the car to go she wanted to follow another dog walking up the street, albeit slowly. I was not planning to let her go---I had made an appointment with the vet who does the chinese stuff, just for a lookover before the holiday. I let her go for the reason that I was afraid that the tumor would rupture and she would suffer. It had grown from one side of her abdomen to the other, think a balloon you blew up too much, ready to pop. I made the decision because of the Facebook page where people post about it. I couldn't allow that possibility. And then to be at the impersonal hospital. I want to type more later about the clinical picture so others can learn from this when their dogs get this terrible diagnosis. Thank you for everything, sincerely you were an angel sent to me, for guidance and to fine tune my intuition to set her free
Be comforted in knowing you did what was best for Gabby. You did everything humanly possible for her, but sometimes we just can't overcome nature. My personal experience is that without some sort of surgery to remove the tumor(s) initially, it's really hard to get enough time for any other treatments to work. I've never been able to. Someone on this forum apparently was able to. I would say that's probably pretty rare, from my experience (and I'm also talking about friends' and neighbors' dogs).
The only dog I've ever had *not* die of cancer (my first) also gave up on eating before I euthanized him. I was hand feeding him Shepherd's Pie and liverwurst -- and he wasn't even at his bowl. He was lying in the living room. I also saw his eyes roll up into his head twice before I decided it was time. Some said I waited too long. Maybe so. It's so hard to know.
Keep your memories of Gabby close. Maybe write them down while they're fresh. I, too, am sad that you needed to let her go, but, again, you definitely made the decision that was best for her.
The only dog I've ever had *not* die of cancer (my first) also gave up on eating before I euthanized him. I was hand feeding him Shepherd's Pie and liverwurst -- and he wasn't even at his bowl. He was lying in the living room. I also saw his eyes roll up into his head twice before I decided it was time. Some said I waited too long. Maybe so. It's so hard to know.
Keep your memories of Gabby close. Maybe write them down while they're fresh. I, too, am sad that you needed to let her go, but, again, you definitely made the decision that was best for her.
