I am consulting with a leading cardiologist nutritionist from Cummings School of veterinary medicine this Friday. Her name is Dr. Freeman - she is a specialist in nutrition for cats with HCM and other heart disease. What questions should I ask her about homeopathic nutrition? What are some of the best and most effective holistic and homeopathic nutrients and supplements specifically for heart disease? CV Health has Hawthorn in it and can make blood pressure go to low as my cat is already on Atenolol (Beta Blocker) and Omega 3. Thank you
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Cats with hcm
- Thread starter PaulF
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Hey Paul-
Wonderful that you will be consulting with Dr. Freeman!
1. Do you mean holistic nutrition? Homeopathy does not have specific nutrition advice in addition to feeding the freshest possible (often raw) food, with moderation and wide variety.
However, this is not the kind of feeding advice that is conventionally given.
2. She should tell you what she advises about supplements.
In general, omega-3 fatty acids ("fish oils"), coenzyme Q-10, carnitine, taurine, low dose Hawthorn (yes, even with atenolol), etc. are among the many useful holistic supplements for heart dis-eases.
Wonderful that you will be consulting with Dr. Freeman!
1. Do you mean holistic nutrition? Homeopathy does not have specific nutrition advice in addition to feeding the freshest possible (often raw) food, with moderation and wide variety.
However, this is not the kind of feeding advice that is conventionally given.
2. She should tell you what she advises about supplements.
In general, omega-3 fatty acids ("fish oils"), coenzyme Q-10, carnitine, taurine, low dose Hawthorn (yes, even with atenolol), etc. are among the many useful holistic supplements for heart dis-eases.
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Dr. Lisa Freeman is one of the foremost antagonists of raw diets. She has written several major articles blasting raw feeding. She also heavily promotes the use of grain-based diets, and is the person who invented the term "BEG" (boutique, exotic meats, grain-free). She is dead wrong about all that. Since 2018, FDA has not found even a hint of a link between taurine and DCM in dogs or cats. Nevertheless, that is her stance. So I would take her nutrition advice with a sizeable grain of salt. In fact, I will venture a psychic prediction 
: she will say that Royal Canin is fine and dandy, and no supplements are needed.
I noticed in the records that, at least at the time of exam, you were feeding Royal Canin dry food. Hopefully as a member of this group, you have already changed this, but for the sake of education of the rest of the group:
Royal Canin diets are not the best quality, and dry food is definitely not what a naturally carnivorous cat should be eating. There is no actual meat in it this food at all. The ingredients are typical for a food in this price range: Chicken By-Product Meal (parts that aren't meat), Corn (GMO), Brewers Rice (contains arsenic), Wheat Gluten (cheap substitute for meat), Corn Gluten Meal (GMO, cheap substitute for meat), Wheat, Natural Flavors (can be almost anything), Powdered Cellulose (sawdust).
I don't have any data or proof of this at all, but HCM is a relatively new disease of cats, and time-wise loosely corresponds to the introduction and massive increase in GMO corn, which is heavily treated with glyphosate (Monsanto's Roundup). Grain products that are too high in glyphosate residue will be shunted into pet food (nobody actually tests for it; but the producer would know about it). Wheat is also commonly treated with glyphosate. You have two wheat products and two corn products in this food. That's a lot of glyphosate. My gut feeling is that glyphosate is contributing to the increase in all manner of diseases in our pets.
This food does contain added taurine and a vanishingly small amount of carnitine; but both of those could be supplemented and may be beneficial. Although taurine is not thought to be connected to HCM, there is no research to either prove or disprove it. I agree with Dr. Jeff about the other potential supplements. As I mentioned in another post, with hawthorn the atenolol dose may need to be lowered, so have your vet monitor that carefully.
If you haven't already, I'd recommend moving away from dry food toward canned (which typically contain more protein, though in this brand it will still be by-products, which are devoid of taurine). If you choose to go on to raw food in the future, I'd encourage it--but don't tell Dr. Freeman, lol!
: she will say that Royal Canin is fine and dandy, and no supplements are needed.I noticed in the records that, at least at the time of exam, you were feeding Royal Canin dry food. Hopefully as a member of this group, you have already changed this, but for the sake of education of the rest of the group:
Royal Canin diets are not the best quality, and dry food is definitely not what a naturally carnivorous cat should be eating. There is no actual meat in it this food at all. The ingredients are typical for a food in this price range: Chicken By-Product Meal (parts that aren't meat), Corn (GMO), Brewers Rice (contains arsenic), Wheat Gluten (cheap substitute for meat), Corn Gluten Meal (GMO, cheap substitute for meat), Wheat, Natural Flavors (can be almost anything), Powdered Cellulose (sawdust).
I don't have any data or proof of this at all, but HCM is a relatively new disease of cats, and time-wise loosely corresponds to the introduction and massive increase in GMO corn, which is heavily treated with glyphosate (Monsanto's Roundup). Grain products that are too high in glyphosate residue will be shunted into pet food (nobody actually tests for it; but the producer would know about it). Wheat is also commonly treated with glyphosate. You have two wheat products and two corn products in this food. That's a lot of glyphosate. My gut feeling is that glyphosate is contributing to the increase in all manner of diseases in our pets.
This food does contain added taurine and a vanishingly small amount of carnitine; but both of those could be supplemented and may be beneficial. Although taurine is not thought to be connected to HCM, there is no research to either prove or disprove it. I agree with Dr. Jeff about the other potential supplements. As I mentioned in another post, with hawthorn the atenolol dose may need to be lowered, so have your vet monitor that carefully.
If you haven't already, I'd recommend moving away from dry food toward canned (which typically contain more protein, though in this brand it will still be by-products, which are devoid of taurine). If you choose to go on to raw food in the future, I'd encourage it--but don't tell Dr. Freeman, lol!
Dr. Lisa Freeman is one of the foremost antagonists of raw diets. She has written several major articles blasting raw feeding. She also heavily promotes the use of grain-based diets, and is the person who invented the term "BEG" (boutique, exotic meats, grain-free). She is dead wrong about all that. Since 2018, FDA has not found even a hint of a link between taurine and DCM in dogs or cats. Nevertheless, that is her stance. So I would take her nutrition advice with a sizeable grain of salt. In fact, I will venture a psychic prediction
I noticed in the records that, at least at the time of exam, you were feeding Royal Canin dry food. Hopefully as a member of this group, you have already changed this, but for the sake of education of the rest of the group:
Royal Canin diets are not the best quality, and dry food is definitely not what a naturally carnivorous cat should be eating. There is no actual meat in it this food at all. The ingredients are typical for a food in this price range: Chicken By-Product Meal (parts that aren't meat), Corn (GMO), Brewers Rice (contains arsenic), Wheat Gluten (cheap substitute for meat), Corn Gluten Meal (GMO, cheap substitute for meat), Wheat, Natural Flavors (can be almost anything), Powdered Cellulose (sawdust).
I don't have any data or proof of this at all, but HCM is a relatively new disease of cats, and time-wise loosely corresponds to the introduction and massive increase in GMO corn, which is heavily treated with glyphosate (Monsanto's Roundup). Grain products that are too high in glyphosate residue will be shunted into pet food (nobody actually tests for it; but the producer would know about it). Wheat is also commonly treated with glyphosate. You have two wheat products and two corn products in this food. That's a lot of glyphosate. My gut feeling is that glyphosate is contributing to the increase in all manner of diseases in our pets.
This food does contain added taurine and a vanishingly small amount of carnitine; but both of those could be supplemented and may be beneficial. Although taurine is not thought to be connected to HCM, there is no research to either prove or disprove it. I agree with Dr. Jeff about the other potential supplements. As I mentioned in another post, with hawthorn the atenolol dose may need to be lowered, so have your vet monitor that carefully.
If you haven't already, I'd recommend moving away from dry food toward canned (which typically contain more protein, though in this brand it will still be by-products, which are devoid of taurine). If you choose to go on to raw food in the future, I'd encourage it--but don't tell Dr. Freeman, lol!
Hi Dr. Jean and Dr. Jeff, thank you both for your input. I read the thread from Dr. Jean. If there is no proof or evidence to back up what you explained. On what basis are you going on?? How have you derived at your conclusions about everything you explained in your thread.Is it based on experience as homeopathic vets?? In order for there to be truth there must be facts and evidence. I want to do what is best for my cat either listening to you bothor Dr. Freeman. I would use you both and Dr. Freeman but it seems you have opposite views on nutrition and heart disease. Please Dr. Jean and Dr. Jeff give me concrete documentation, evidence, proof or tell me where to go and find it. Tomorrow I meet with Dr. Freeman and it seems that I will not be able to act on both sides advise since you both have opposite views on diet, nutrition and supplements treating heart disease.
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Well, briefly, you could look in your cat's mouth, at those lovely, sharp teeth meant for catching and swallowing prey. No molars in there for chewing; in fact, no way to move the jaw to chew at all. Now go on down to the stomach and look for enzymes such as amylase - none there! And none in the saliva, either. I'm being flippant here, but no one in his right mind could look at a cat and think processed waste products of agriculture made ideal food for him. Unfortunately, veterinarians can be bought, fooled, and forced to toe corporate lines as much as any politician. Pity the poor owners who take their word as gospel. Don't be one of those, please. Our excellent cat specialist vets here can give you references to literature; just promise us you will keep an open mind, and you will see what makes more sense. Use, with a grain of salt, the establishment reccos for possible heart supplements, but know that holistic medicine, and homeopathy in particular, have a great deal of success treating cats, dogs, and humans with heart issues. In many cases, lines between the disciplines may blur - no one supplement or remedy may do it all. But I double- darn-dare you to PROVE that a cat does not deserve cat-appropriate nutrition. OK, I'll shut up now....
Thank you please advise me on how I find/get literature specifically on how holistic/homeopathic herbs, supplements and neutraceuticals can help my cat. Also the issue of raw diet for cat disease is a controversial one. Why raw diet how does that help a heart condition
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You're right, Paul, the fundamental approaches of western medicine and holistic health are completely opposed. There are ways to meld them, but you have to make choices based on what you want, and what you believe.
The thing about holistic medicine is that there isn't a lot of money to put into such studies. Research is very expensive. Hill's and Purina and Royal Canin have the money, and they invest in studies. Since their studies are "proprietary" they don't publish or publicize them *unless* the result is favorable for their profit motive. I know a researcher who worked for Hill's for many years. She said, in writing, that cats do better on a raw diet. But Hill's wasn't about to sponsor a full study about it. They publish studies they like, and then they spend boatloads of money advertising them. I've long said that if Hill's put half the money they spent on advertising into better quality ingredients, I could probably recommend them. But the way to make money is to use the cheapest ingredients and sell for the highest price.
Our philosophy is pretty much diametrically opposite from that!
There are slso many levels of evidence. Randomized controlled trials are only one; and not even the best one.
My opinions are based on 27 years of experience with many thousands of cats, as well as many hundreds of hours of research. The last time I moved, I had whole filing cabinet drawer packed with journal articles and research papers (that I'm still trying to convert to electrons!).
When I look at studies, one thing I do is look to see who funded them, because it influences my assessment of the data's reliability. There actually is quite a bit of data showing that less processed, more species-specific ingredients are better digested and give better results, and more is coming out all the time--but mostly from Europe, Japan, etc., so it doesn't get much attention in the U.S. because we arrogantly assume that anything foreign is not the same quality (as false as that assumption is!).
For example, a recently study found that puppies fed a raw unprocessed diet had a much lower risk of developing IBD later in life compared to puppies fed a highly processed commercial diet. A similar, previous study found that processed food produced 3 to 8 times more IgE autoantibodies than raw food, possibly due to reactions against AGEs, Advanced Glycation Products, that occur in heat-treated food via that Maillard reaction. This reaction is considered *desirable* in kibble because it makes the food taste better, but AGEs are dangerous compounds linked to cancer and other serious diseases.
You probably noticed that I do have a particular problem with Dr. Freeman, and I suspect the feeling is mutual. In one of her group's papers, she criticized an old diet of mine she found online--one that I had long since corrected and updated (and which I had *never* claimed was complete and balanced!). But most papers are published months to years after the research is actually finished, so their data was incorrect by the time it was published.
In a previous paper she and her co-authors criticized Steve Brown's raw diet. Among other errors, their calculations were off by a factor of TEN! After Steve sent a long letter to the publisher explaining the errors, a correction was published... in a gray box with tiny font buried deep in the journal... which, of course, no one saw.
I have an ebook on feeding cats that I'm currently revising; it's well over 250 pages with (as of now) 348 references to scientific articles, and I haven't even added the last 6 months' worth yet! I even cite two of Dr. Freeman's papers; she's not wrong about everything. ?
A friend of mine, a board certified nutritionist, picked apart not only FDA's but also her group's research on taurine, DCM, and "BEG" diets on Facebook, if you're interested I can try to find links to his posts showing all the erroneous assumptions upon which their equally erroneous conclusions were based. When I took a quick look at FDA's data, of 19 foods claimed to be "boutique," FIFTEEN of them were published by Purina, Hill's and several other very NON-boutique companies.
Nutrition is such a controversial topic, but as Ginny said, common sense and the cat's own physiology will pretty much tell you that processed kibble is NOT appropriate for our obligate carnivore kitties.
The upshot of all this is that you have to find your own path, probably somewhere between ours and the veterinary establishment. We all have our own very strong opinions. Listen to everyone, but chart your own course!
The thing about holistic medicine is that there isn't a lot of money to put into such studies. Research is very expensive. Hill's and Purina and Royal Canin have the money, and they invest in studies. Since their studies are "proprietary" they don't publish or publicize them *unless* the result is favorable for their profit motive. I know a researcher who worked for Hill's for many years. She said, in writing, that cats do better on a raw diet. But Hill's wasn't about to sponsor a full study about it. They publish studies they like, and then they spend boatloads of money advertising them. I've long said that if Hill's put half the money they spent on advertising into better quality ingredients, I could probably recommend them. But the way to make money is to use the cheapest ingredients and sell for the highest price.
Our philosophy is pretty much diametrically opposite from that!
There are slso many levels of evidence. Randomized controlled trials are only one; and not even the best one.
My opinions are based on 27 years of experience with many thousands of cats, as well as many hundreds of hours of research. The last time I moved, I had whole filing cabinet drawer packed with journal articles and research papers (that I'm still trying to convert to electrons!).
When I look at studies, one thing I do is look to see who funded them, because it influences my assessment of the data's reliability. There actually is quite a bit of data showing that less processed, more species-specific ingredients are better digested and give better results, and more is coming out all the time--but mostly from Europe, Japan, etc., so it doesn't get much attention in the U.S. because we arrogantly assume that anything foreign is not the same quality (as false as that assumption is!).
For example, a recently study found that puppies fed a raw unprocessed diet had a much lower risk of developing IBD later in life compared to puppies fed a highly processed commercial diet. A similar, previous study found that processed food produced 3 to 8 times more IgE autoantibodies than raw food, possibly due to reactions against AGEs, Advanced Glycation Products, that occur in heat-treated food via that Maillard reaction. This reaction is considered *desirable* in kibble because it makes the food taste better, but AGEs are dangerous compounds linked to cancer and other serious diseases.
You probably noticed that I do have a particular problem with Dr. Freeman, and I suspect the feeling is mutual. In one of her group's papers, she criticized an old diet of mine she found online--one that I had long since corrected and updated (and which I had *never* claimed was complete and balanced!). But most papers are published months to years after the research is actually finished, so their data was incorrect by the time it was published.
In a previous paper she and her co-authors criticized Steve Brown's raw diet. Among other errors, their calculations were off by a factor of TEN! After Steve sent a long letter to the publisher explaining the errors, a correction was published... in a gray box with tiny font buried deep in the journal... which, of course, no one saw.
I have an ebook on feeding cats that I'm currently revising; it's well over 250 pages with (as of now) 348 references to scientific articles, and I haven't even added the last 6 months' worth yet! I even cite two of Dr. Freeman's papers; she's not wrong about everything. ?
A friend of mine, a board certified nutritionist, picked apart not only FDA's but also her group's research on taurine, DCM, and "BEG" diets on Facebook, if you're interested I can try to find links to his posts showing all the erroneous assumptions upon which their equally erroneous conclusions were based. When I took a quick look at FDA's data, of 19 foods claimed to be "boutique," FIFTEEN of them were published by Purina, Hill's and several other very NON-boutique companies.
Nutrition is such a controversial topic, but as Ginny said, common sense and the cat's own physiology will pretty much tell you that processed kibble is NOT appropriate for our obligate carnivore kitties.
The upshot of all this is that you have to find your own path, probably somewhere between ours and the veterinary establishment. We all have our own very strong opinions. Listen to everyone, but chart your own course!
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- Mar 3, 2021
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Paul, it's not so much that a raw diet helps, as that every other diet can cause, depending on the contents, stress, poor digestion, cellular insult, organ failure - all avoidable conditions that are so very common. Raw meat is truly what they were designed for, so it is the easiest to process and metabolize. This lessens the stress on every organ in the body, allowing them to perform as they should. To this end, a properly prototypical diet is the biggest factor in preserving, achieving and restoring health, and the heart function comes right along with that. Other targeted therapies, supplements, and adjuncts will ALL be more effective when the diet is positive and not causing stress. As for evidence, you could look for articles and theses - or you could just start trying some of the basic improvements and supplements. If your cat can be helped, this'll do it, and as he grows stronger, both diet and adjuncts can be adjusted for the best result.
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Hey Paul. I don't write as eloquently as Ginny and Dr. Jean, but FWIW, here are my brief two cents.
Dr. Freeman is right.
Just like the carpenter with only a hammer is right to use it when they see a screw.
And just like most sailors who wouldn't sail over the horizon, before Columbus, because they knew that the world was flat.
It's impossible to decide what is best to do if only given limited information.
IMHO, deciding what to feed, or what supplements or drugs to give, is like this and should be based on knowing all of the risks, benefits and molecular data available at the time.
This is the essence of how we understand and share holistic information here at HA! The VBS (vitality and balance system) framework we teach is based on the molecular individuality and susceptibility as defined by the molecular biology understanding of the exposome.
The Human Exposome (everything beyond the genome) Project is an active and illuminating area of research around the world regarding the molecular effects and relative risks of everything we do, like what we eat (the hamburger in the upper right of the cover symbolizes the potential harmful effect of processed dry and wet foods).
humanexposomeproject.com
The fact that every decision we make is reflected on the molecular level and can lead to dis-eases (imbalances in homeostasis), such as HCM, is the essence of the HMDM (Holistic Medical Decision Making) method of Holistic Actions!
drive.google.com
Sorry that I digressed above but but I believe that there is one HUGE piece of information missing from the veterinary (and medical) education system in the US that is directly relevant to your decision about what to feed.
Most of us are taught little to nothing about the importance of non-physical energy in vet school.
We learn only about measurable molecules such as ATP and NAD and the mitochondrial powerhouses of the cell, but nothing about non-physical energy of Qi, Prana or the Vital Force (or biofield).
But the knowledge of the energy in food (and conservation of energy in the body to optimize function) is needed to make fully informed decisions.
HMDM Step 2 (research) is not complete without learning about both the energetic effects of food in addition to physical effects such as from macronutrients like protein, fat and carbohydrates.
Vitalism teaches us that food is alive, and the relative energy it imparts is an important part of the cancer sparing and health giving effects of fresh food feeding. In addition to way fewer (or no) harmful Advanced Glycation Endproducts.
Here's one way proposed way to visualize the relative energies of food. However, like the energies of Qi and Prana, it is not yet measurable so remains hypothetical:
Regarding research, there's plenty out there, and more important work being done everyday.
IMHO, it needs to be funded, performed, published and "translated" into holistic actions like fresh food feeding, and building and preserving vitality, as soon as possible. For the sake of our beloved pets.
As Dr. Jean points out, lots of it is being done in Europe. Not so much in the US. In fact, I was on a Zoom meeting today with a vet, homeopath, and researcher in Austria who was surprised to learn how little European info was known by US vets. For example:
www.homeopathie-unio.be
This information includes a consensus statement by vets all over the world, including Cornell Univ, that all of this information should be taught in vet school.
The world One Health Commission says this as well in their Roadmap to Health in 2030 (or for 2021):
Please update us about what Dr. Freeman says tomorrow. Seeing her is important and will help you decide what to do.
Dr. Freeman is right.
Just like the carpenter with only a hammer is right to use it when they see a screw.
And just like most sailors who wouldn't sail over the horizon, before Columbus, because they knew that the world was flat.
It's impossible to decide what is best to do if only given limited information.
IMHO, deciding what to feed, or what supplements or drugs to give, is like this and should be based on knowing all of the risks, benefits and molecular data available at the time.
This is the essence of how we understand and share holistic information here at HA! The VBS (vitality and balance system) framework we teach is based on the molecular individuality and susceptibility as defined by the molecular biology understanding of the exposome.
The Human Exposome (everything beyond the genome) Project is an active and illuminating area of research around the world regarding the molecular effects and relative risks of everything we do, like what we eat (the hamburger in the upper right of the cover symbolizes the potential harmful effect of processed dry and wet foods).
The Human Exposome Project
Bringing investigators together around the exposome to develop a new generation of scientists focused on complex environmental influences and human health.
The fact that every decision we make is reflected on the molecular level and can lead to dis-eases (imbalances in homeostasis), such as HCM, is the essence of the HMDM (Holistic Medical Decision Making) method of Holistic Actions!
HMDM2.pdf
Sorry that I digressed above but but I believe that there is one HUGE piece of information missing from the veterinary (and medical) education system in the US that is directly relevant to your decision about what to feed.
Most of us are taught little to nothing about the importance of non-physical energy in vet school.
We learn only about measurable molecules such as ATP and NAD and the mitochondrial powerhouses of the cell, but nothing about non-physical energy of Qi, Prana or the Vital Force (or biofield).
But the knowledge of the energy in food (and conservation of energy in the body to optimize function) is needed to make fully informed decisions.
HMDM Step 2 (research) is not complete without learning about both the energetic effects of food in addition to physical effects such as from macronutrients like protein, fat and carbohydrates.
Vitalism teaches us that food is alive, and the relative energy it imparts is an important part of the cancer sparing and health giving effects of fresh food feeding. In addition to way fewer (or no) harmful Advanced Glycation Endproducts.
Here's one way proposed way to visualize the relative energies of food. However, like the energies of Qi and Prana, it is not yet measurable so remains hypothetical:
Regarding research, there's plenty out there, and more important work being done everyday.
IMHO, it needs to be funded, performed, published and "translated" into holistic actions like fresh food feeding, and building and preserving vitality, as soon as possible. For the sake of our beloved pets.
As Dr. Jean points out, lots of it is being done in Europe. Not so much in the US. In fact, I was on a Zoom meeting today with a vet, homeopath, and researcher in Austria who was surprised to learn how little European info was known by US vets. For example:
Unio Homeopathica Belgica - Colloque Dynhom mai 2017
This information includes a consensus statement by vets all over the world, including Cornell Univ, that all of this information should be taught in vet school.
The world One Health Commission says this as well in their Roadmap to Health in 2030 (or for 2021):
Please update us about what Dr. Freeman says tomorrow. Seeing her is important and will help you decide what to do.
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