Canine Dental/In Ofc Cleaning Dilemmas

Cyd

Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2019
Messages
2
My approx 9 yr old rescue dog, Elliott, is finally scheduled for what is likely the first teeth cleaning in his life, flwg a 1-1/2 yr delay to resolve an initially undetected hookworm infestation. He came to me with several missing teeth, 2 snapped off canines, gums that a vet described as "trench mouth" & a jagged-edge, rock hard
crust of calculus in varying shades of brown. Though he was unsure about the need for me to poke around twice a day around his mouth, he quickly became accustomed to an actual brush & was patient with the experiments of various dental products that promised to dissolve the cement-like coating & possibly even restore the stability of loose teeth back into the gums. Regarding the loose teeth, I learned a good lesson very recently, only 2 months ago did I realize that there were actually wiggly teeth, I'd been so gentle with the micro-fiber finger brush, then with the doggy tooth brush, any movement of loose teeth wasn't detectable. Only when I decided to see if I could chip off some of the bigger patches of tartar did I realize that at least 3-4 teeth were shifting about. With the exception of the little incisor jutting forward, one would really have to stretch the lips back or downward & have the intention of really checking things out, which moving forward, I am going to do. No more waiting for someone else to check things out for me, only 1 of the 3 vets seen would even attempt to look into his mouth, even after I rqstd confirmation of my suspicions. I decided immed that the only " holistic"vet who did take a deeper look during our 1st/initial consult would be the best choice, she said she could probably reduce the qty of anesth by using acupuncture during the procedure, the goal would be to preserve using good judgement vs. eliminating via extraction of questionable teeth (she recognized as I believe that each tooth is associated w/a specific body organ), she felt that the inability of the other vet under consideration to give me even a ballpark
final cost estimate (that vet told me that depending upon the extra labor involved for a big/deep rooted tooth extraction, that I might be charged an addl $50/tooth & not know until work was started), was an income boosting tactic. So far, so good, except that I had to press her for some type of treatment plan for the pus oozing wound that conveniently erupted a few days prior to that 1st consult, during the 2 wks that we had to wait, this vet is highly regarded locally. I'd asked, actually I politely pleaded for some guidance for something proven effective to promote healing, ease the inflammation during the weeks leading up to the pre-op or actual cleaning appt the firav appt being 3 wks later, it seemed a travesty to me to not leave w/either validation that organic green tea w/a pinch of Himalayan salt or topical colloidal silver were optimum treatments. I'd already paid, I asked the receptionist to verify 1 last time if the vet could offer any at home treatment, I was caught off guard when the receptionist returned w/a personally labeled bottle of Clindamycin which said to "give 1x/day until gone". Being caught off guard is the only reason I would have paid $12 before coming to my senses once Elliott & I got into the car. I hv put that experience in perspective by calling the $12, "tuition", I intend for it to be the last time I am bamboozled into paying for a substance that I know fm experience is capable to deflating the life-force with a single dose. Dr. "N" doesn't know yet that I have not & will not give the oral antibio., the cleaning procedure estimate indicates PENICILLIN - Is this typically administered in the course of dental cleaning? Is it a 1 time injection? Should I request it not be used? If it is a regular precaution for most vets, I am not sure if it's a good idea to disrupt her routine, if it is a worthwhile point to challenge. I will inquire on 3/14 but not necessarily indicate any objection, I would probably ctc Dr. N prior to the actual cleaning date depending upon yr advice. Also, Dr. N didn't recommend any x-rays, though Dr. E insisted they would be essential to identify any deep seated/below gumline issues. I would prefer avoiding x-rays, though I can understand the reasoning to do them as well. Is this a generational thing? Why do some vets (older) feel confident assessing dental health without them, is it a situation of how they were trained? I hv heard since returning to the USA that the younger vets seem to rely more on diagnostic equipment compared to vets who started practicing before high-tech devices were available. Is there some truth? Could you pls tell me if I should inquire about how any tooth ligaments are attended to, if a tooth happens to be really damaged? Back in 2004 I chose for 1 of my dogs to receive a root canal for a damaged tooth, which years later was discovered to hv been a total wasted of money & source of deep seated decay, even possibly/likely causing stress on the liver & kidneys in her old age. The ligament question comes up relative to Dr. Mercola's info on human dentistry pertaining to damaged teeth. Finally, do any of those animal
products that claim to hv the ability to re-secure loose teeth really work, is that even possible? The past 2 weeks hv been an intensive course on mouth & dental health. Elliott's pus wound for the most part healed using kitchen cupboard/basic holistic medicine cabinet substances. I did apply with a Q-tip for 2 days at the end of healing, SUPER OXYGENATED WATER because it works on aerobic, anaerobic bacteria, viruses, fungus, promotes healing, doesn't degrade tissue, can be used directly on fresh surgical incisions, has anyone experience using this? I'm not sure what it is called in the USA, I got it in Mexico, sold @ pharmacies OTC, mfgrd by Oculus, called MICRODACYN, my acupuncturist introduced me to the product.
 

Dr. Jeff

Veterinarian
Joined
Feb 23, 2017
Messages
523
Hi Cyd-

the cleaning procedure estimate indicates PENICILLIN - Is this typically administered in the course of dental cleaning? Is it a 1 time injection? Should I request it not be used? If it is a regular precaution for most vets, I am not sure if it's a good idea to disrupt her routine,
Yes, it is "routine" to use anti-biotics before and after any dentistry in dogs. Especially when the teeth are as dirty you describe for Elliot.

Some vets do indeed use a 1 time injection whereas others prescribe pills or liquids.

Research shows that is definitely true that that dental procedure can spread bacteria into the bloodstream. However as you know, it is the individual resistance of the animal/person that determines whether a secondary infection occurs.

I am not aware of any similar studies for routine dental prophylaxis yet anti-biotics are still commonly prescribed.

There's not as much risk of an overwhelming (to the immune system) bacterial shed there so personally, even when practicing conventionally, I did not use potentially harmful medications in that situation.

However, I agree that it's not a good idea to disrupt her in office routine. What you choose to do at home is another matter tho.

Also, Dr. N didn't recommend any x-rays, though Dr. E insisted they would be essential to identify any deep seated/below gumline issues. I would prefer avoiding x-rays, though I can understand the reasoning to do them as well. Is this a generational thing?
To some degree, yes, it is a generational thing. However, oral radiographs (x-rays) are also "good medicine" and eare ssential for many dentals. Especially if extractions are performed. X-rays are often the only way to see if part of a root remains and whether there is a problem with the jaw bone.

Why do some vets (older) feel confident assessing dental health without them, is it a situation of how they were trained? I hv heard since returning to the USA that the younger vets seem to rely more on diagnostic equipment compared to vets who started practicing before high-tech devices were available. Is there some truth?
Yes, it's a function of training, experience and availability of high quality (digital) x-rays.

Exactly (age of the vet can be the difference)!

Could you pls tell me if I should inquire about how any tooth ligaments are attended to, if a tooth happens to be really damaged?
X-rays will definitely show roots but physical exam (and wiggling the tooth) is often better at picking up ligament issues.

do any of those animal
products that claim to hv the ability to re-secure loose teeth really work, is that even possible?
Yes, it is possible. The focus here is keeping the teeth clean, providing adequate dental exercise (by chewing big chunks of meat and edible bones) and great gum care.

Dr. Martha mentioned one such product on Mon. (DentaPet) which she is researching in her office. The jury is still out on that one.

Personally I use Oratene oral gel (the same enzyme system as Zymox for the ears) mixed with Neem Bark Powder massaged into the gums 2x/day.

A well absorbed (a gel cap or non-crystalline) form of coenzyme Q-10 is also very helpful. Both orally and topically (applied to the gums).

SUPER OXYGENATED WATER because it works on aerobic, anaerobic bacteria, viruses, fungus, promotes healing, doesn't degrade tissue, can be used directly on fresh surgical incisions, has anyone experience using this?
Yes, ozonated water can work very well. Here's what the abstract of one of the articles in your HMDM research folder says:

Gingivitis and periodontitis are most common inflammatory diseases of supporting tissues of teeth. Role of microbial etiology and host response in progression of gingival and periodontal diseases has been well established. Because of the beneficial biological effects of ozone, due to its antimicrobial and immunostimulating effect, it is well indicated in the treatment of gingival and periodontal diseases. The objective of this article is to provide a general review about clinical applications of ozone in treatment of periodontal diseases and to summarize the available in vitro and in vivo studies in Periodontics in which ozone has been used.
Please let us know how it goes with Elliot's dental.
 

Dr. Christina

Veterinarian
Joined
Jun 15, 2017
Messages
82
You have learned a lot in a short time, Cyd. What a sweetheart to let you brush his teeth so soon after getting him.

Dr. Jeff gave great answers, so I will add a little bit.

One reason older vets do not use as many diagnostics is as Dr. Jeff said - some things were not available. Also, dogs were healthier, so I think we did not need to carefully examine the mouth with x-rays. I certainly started warning people about tooth breakage on dried out big bones about a decade ago. Teeth were just weaker in a lot of dogs.

Ozone is becoming more and more popular, even with conventional vets and comes in several forms. One is in oil.

Are you also working with a veterinary homeopath? That would certainly help build vitality and balance and keep a healthy mouth. I agree with you and Dr. Jeff to let the vet give her routine Penicillin injection. Most dogs can tolerate a dose or two of a drug.

keep us posted!
Dr. Christina
 

Cyd

Member
Joined
Mar 5, 2019
Messages
2
Hi Cyd-



Yes, it is "routine" to use anti-biotics before and after any dentistry in dogs. Especially when the teeth are as dirty you describe for Elliot.

Some vets do indeed use a 1 time injection whereas others prescribe pills or liquids.

Research shows that is definitely true that that dental procedure can spread bacteria into the bloodstream. However as you know, it is the individual resistance of the animal/person that determines whether a secondary infection occurs.

I am not aware of any similar studies for routine dental prophylaxis yet anti-biotics are still commonly prescribed.

There's not as much risk of an overwhelming (to the immune system) bacterial shed there so personally, even when practicing conventionally, I did not use potentially harmful medications in that situation.

However, I agree that it's not a good idea to disrupt her in office routine. What you choose to do at home is another matter tho.



To some degree, yes, it is a generational thing. However, oral radiographs (x-rays) are also "good medicine" and eare ssential for many dentals. Especially if extractions are performed. X-rays are often the only way to see if part of a root remains and whether there is a problem with the jaw bone.



Yes, it's a function of training, experience and availability of high quality (digital) x-rays.

Exactly (age of the vet can be the difference)!



X-rays will definitely show roots but physical exam (and wiggling the tooth) is often better at picking up ligament issues.



Yes, it is possible. The focus here is keeping the teeth clean, providing adequate dental exercise (by chewing big chunks of meat and edible bones) and great gum care.

Dr. Martha mentioned one such product on Mon. (DentaPet) which she is researching in her office. The jury is still out on that one.

Personally I use Oratene oral gel (the same enzyme system as Zymox for the ears) mixed with Neem Bark Powder massaged into the gums 2x/day.

A well absorbed (a gel cap or non-crystalline) form of coenzyme Q-10 is also very helpful. Both orally and topically (applied to the gums).



Yes, ozonated water can work very well. Here's what the abstract of one of the articles in your HMDM research folder says:



Please let us know how it goes with Elliot's dental.
Thank you for the very informative answers, I will definitely by giving some of these suggestions a try. The first-hand product & practical treatment guidance is invaluable, for so many years I've had to make decisions relying on random reviews or word-of-mouth recommendations, which often caused me to feel nervous that I would cause a crisis or mystery reaction, which a traditional vet would be unable to or be willing to address. This fact alone is what would prompt me to specifically seek out holistic vets, unfortunately I've discovered that it sometimes takes a couple of visits to find out that "holistic/natural" is defined in different ways, that many haven't been moved to test out non-pharma approaches in their practices or on their own pets so that they can't confirm the safety/efficacy of an alternative treatment. Elliott's case has taken a 180 dgree turn, the scheduled dental cleaning w/Dr. N has been cancelled. His pre-op blood test indicates elevated BUN of 41, normal Creatinine. Previous results, Nov 2017 indicated Urea Nitro 22, BUN/Creat ratio 24:
this was his initial pre-cleaning test done 3 wks after adoption, at which time he was suffering an unknown massive hookworm infestation + trench mouth type gum/teeth condition. 2nd test of Nov 2018 showed BUN 37, big improvement in condition of mouth, however still in obvious need of some type of prof. dental attention, particularly relating to 4-5 loose teeth, it was presumed prev year hookworms had been eradicated, but there was still a hookworm presence that upon discovery confirmed cause of some digestive/appetite issues, as well as in my mind, urine control capability which was only a max of 5 hrs. Dr. E didn't seem concerned about the BUN level to be an obstacle to necess dental service. Hooks treated w/Panacur (very adverse reaction) then 2 doses Strongid which had worked well Nov 2017. 3rd blood work, required pre-op by Dr. N came back showing further elevation BUN to 41, creatinine still normal, fecal negative, however I was aware of occ. single tapeworm segment in stool. Mandatory heartworm SNAP was neg; before proceeding to planned dental, 1 month round of AZYDOL & AMINAVAST would be required + re-test, no other options, I had to catch myself asking, "when I could p/u meds" & realized that this approach did not make any sense, it was very stressful to not even be ready to write down details having answered the ph w/essential oils on my hands, there would be no opportunity to discuss this issue any further, it was "take it or leave it". I recovered my presence of mind a few hours later & called to arrange pick-up of a hard-copy of rest results, I'll detail what happened in a separate post. Even w/my limited knowledge, I truly feel that very obvious conditions were not taken into consideration as to the possible causes of BUN increasing. There has probably been some sort of infection of fluctuating levels going on, particularly in the mouth, Elliott had a bleeding pus wound on the gum 10 days prior to blood draw adjacent to a very loose upper molar, at 1st consult I'd tried to explain the amazing effect that TRANS-CUTANEOUS ACUPUNCTURE had had w/very visible elevation of overall vitality, flexibility, improved emotional control, posture, one other important benefit as per the creator of the modality, Dr. Norm Shealy, MD being elevated Oxytocin & elimination of Free Radicals. Also during Elliott's time w/me there have been significant reductions/eliminations of various lumps & bumps, even in the few short days btwn 3/14 & 3/17, a recently discovered wart that I was hastily able to point out to Dr. N's asst before the blood draw, I discovered yesterday that it appears to be drying up & falling off! To me there is a lot of natural healing change occurring in El's body, that there has got to be a lot of unexplainable in traditional medical terms detoxing of internal garbage, just the fact that the gum wound healed without the prescribed antibiotics; I also never had the opportunity to discuss the possible involvement of probable trauma on the area of the right-side of mid back where kidneys are, residual evidence having been a sign of torsion or blunt force trauma theorized by rescue's vet, all of my vets who checked it out said it was just a lipoma. Dr N had indicated when I inquired about pulses said in gen'l things were good although right kidney meridian was weaker. I am very concerned about the upward BUN, & I do feel that the ongoing dirty mouth condition is certainly a contributor, according to my understanding of possible causes. I also started taking a harder look at diet, particularly purity of proteins & started looking @ other options, particularly to variety of fish, I got worried that some type of industrial food process. additive
could be causing a problem, I want to get your input before even thinking about substituing protein w/grains. Basically, I think I need to weigh the benefits of scheduling a dental ASAP W/Dr. E, before BUN gets any higher, eliminating a big Question/variable from the equation or trying to improve mouth, but with obvious need for extraction of molar, I actually think x-ray particularly on that hidden
tooth/root might be a good idea, that exposure to anesth at this time might be a necessary risk. I will go into details of other aspects of this experience in later posts, it has been a very educational experience that is helping to guide me to an overall game plan moving forward.
 

Dr. Jeff

Veterinarian
Joined
Feb 23, 2017
Messages
523
Hi Cyd-

There has probably been some sort of infection of fluctuating levels going on, particularly in the mouth
Remember, mouth infections that become systemic are always secondary to lowered natural resistance. Often related to some lifestyle factor such as annual vaccinations and exposure to other toxins, commercial foods, symptom suppression etc.

Do any of these apply to Elliott?

I am very concerned about the upward BUN
BUN is very variable and reflects diet and hydration status as much (or more) than kidney function.

Trends in values like creatinine (even if it's in the normal range), HCT, albumin, etc. can be more reflective of kidney damage.

Since you are understandably worried about Elliott's kidneys, perhaps your next step should be a visit to a nephrologist (a vet specialist in kidneys) or someone specializing in internal medicine in general.

AminAvast is great, especially when combined with the Rx Vitamins product call Rx Renal.

Also, the HA! cystitis and kidney course and Empower Hour! webinars may be helpful for you.

Click/tap here for the kidney course and resources (once you have logged in at the main site).
 
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