- Joined
- Jan 8, 2018
- Messages
- 125
Here is a recap on conversation between some members and our faculty full of great tidbits:
FrancineR shared:
Dr. Jean - thank you so much for your reply to my post about Sophie, which I have inserted below:
"Rather than olive oil (or other plant-based oil containing only ALA, alpha-linolenic acid), I would definitely go with one that contains EPA and DHA, such as fish oil or green-lipped mussel oil. By far, EPA has the best anti-inflammatory properties. DHA is structurally important, it is used in every cell membrane in the body. Cats (and dogs and humans) cannot convert ALA to EPA and DHA in any significant amount so it is important to supplement them directly. I do not recommend coconut oil at all; it doesn't contain anything she needs, and the lauric acid it contains can cause inflammation in the gut. It is also bad-tasting to a lot of cats.
Standard Process Livaplex is my go-to supplement for any type of liver disease. It can work miracles.
It also sounds like there is very little calcium in her diet (except the small amount in sardines). It might be helpful to add calcium to get a better dietary balance."
Will the fish or green-lipped mussel oils help increase her weight, as she may convert them easier? Do you prefer one over the other?
And are you suggesting that I also add Standard Process Livaplex to aid with her liver tumor? I have starting to use CAS powder in her meals...do you advise using both the Livaplex and CAS? And what brand of Livaplex would you recommend (there are so many on the market)?
I do add a touch of seaweed calcium (from The Pet Health and Nutrition Center) to each meal. The suggested dose is 1 tsp/1 lb. of food, and she eats about 2-3 Tbs per meal.
I so appreciate your input and am grateful for your concern, as well as for the concern of Dr. Jeff (her doctor) and Ginny Wilken. I am writing to you vs. posting in the Forum, as I am anxious to put the weight back on her as soon as possible. Sophie is now on a Sulphur Q1 remedy - don't know if it's related, but she has started to eat raw again...
Dr. Jean responded:
Livaplex is made by Standard Process. I would use in addition to CAS, which does very different things.
The calcium amount I use is a rounded tablespoon per pound of meat, which comes from Dr. Pitcairn's recipe. Calcium is a real booger to figure out, especially when you are math-phobic like me. Took me weeks to arrive at just this estimate!
Any extra oil adds calories and will help stabilize her weight, if not add a little more. I am just advocating an oil that does more than give empty calories, something that provides other benefits as well as just calories. OTOH the easiest way to gain weight is by packing on the carbs. (For me, it's Fritos and popcorn, but I wouldn't recommend them!) Of course, that can mess with insulin metabolism. Nothing is easy about kitty nutrition!!
FrancineR:
Livaplex suggests 1 capsule per meal. This seems like a lot for a 5-1/2 lb. cat. I spread the 1/2 CAS pill over 4 meals. Also, I have a bottle of NZ Penta Genesis from Dr. Jeff. Will it suffice for the green-lipped mussel oil? If not, I will order it.
I can increase a little of the seaweed calcium, but am leery of overdosing. Cannot readily think of acceptable carbs to give her…definitely not Fritos or popcorn, but I can attest to their weight-gaining capabilities.
Dr. Jeff:
no worries about ODing the calcium. Too little is an issue, but not too much (for older pets).
FrancineR:
Thank you, Jeff. I will increase the calcium. Also, I’ve been in touch with NZ Green-Lipped Mussel Oil and can order it individually, and it will ship from Irvine CA in 3-5 days. These are the same people for Penta Genesis?
GinnyW:
Curious about any recommendation of carbohydrates for a cat, who lacks any sort of enzymes with which to derive food value from them. Fat, from animals, would be the most natural and accessible caloric source, and fish or other seafood oil right up there in nutritional value, IMO.
FrancineR:
Ginny, I think I will stick to the animal food diet, augmented with the NZ Green-Lipped Mussel Oil. Too many supplements confuses me, and supplements will only work if Sophie eats them (she is a little picky). It will take a little time to gauge any meaningful weight gain; meanwhile, she is exhibiting really good BEAM.
Dr. Jean:
Cats readily digest and absorb carbohydrates, especially simple or processed carbs (those that have the plant cell walls already broken down). The pet food industry uses carbs as a source of energy, rather than the more expensive protein and fat. The problem is that dietary carbs that aren't used for the cat's immediate energy needs (which is pretty much all of them!) are stored as fat. I don't "recommend" carbs for cats, but the question was how to put weight on, and that is one way. A keto-type diet tends to cause weight loss, and increasing fat tends to encourage weight loss, in an overweight animal (but that isn't Sophie's case). That's the only reason I mentioned carbs.
I'm not familiar with Penta Genesis, it's not the same company as Moxxor or any of the other GLM companies that I know of.
GinnyW:
OK, Dr. Jean: I've looked around, and can't find any solid medical discussion about cat enzymes. Everyone seems to have some plant product to sell
Being that cats are inarguably obligate carnivores, I still cling stubbornly to the idea that they are not equipped to actually derive nutrition from plants - outside of some simple sugars without which they'd be fine, and I'd expect those to be processed as compounds in the liver and burned for energy, or just to get rid of them.
I'd argue that, yes, a ketone-producing diet works against storing anything as fat, unless caloric intake is extraordinarily high. But it has many biological benefits on a cellular level: encouraging the metabolic production of NMN and thus NAD+, protecting against radiation, encouraging sirtuins and thus mitochondrial rebuilding. So a cat's natural proclivities will produce - a healthy cat! Gotta love it! Send links, please...and thanks!
Dr. Jean:
It's really late and I already took my nighty-night pills, but so I can get on the right track in the morning, do you mean (a) what enzymes does a cat MAKE in its own digestive tract, or (b) what enzymes are best to GIVE a cat, e.g., plant-based products vs. pancreatic extracts? (If it's (b), that's easy... fungal-based enzymes work best for omnivores/carnivores. Pancreas extracts are slaughterhouse waste from critters who are most definitely not carnivores!)
GinnyW:
hank you for answering, Dr. Jean! Yes, I really want to find out a bit of both I can understand why fungal-based enzymes might be valuable; I don't like the pancreatic extracts for dogs or human either. I would like to know what sort of supplements would help a cat digest his natural meat diet most easily.
Dr. Jeff:
Nope, the companies are not the same.
NZ Deer Velvet products is in NZ. Barry, the CEO over there would be happy to chat about sources of NZ green lipped muscle. He's very knowledgeable!! (866) 897-5688
Dr. Jean:
So, "morning" being a relative term... as I get older, it takes me so much longer to get cracking!!
"Amylase" is a general term covering starch-digesting enzymes. Amylase is produced in the salivary glands in humans but not in cats or dogs. But the carnivore pancreas does produce amylase, though less of it than non-carnivores. Feeding a high-starch diet doubles that activity over time.
Ellen Kienzle is the researcher who has done the most on feline digestion. Unfortunately, she writes in German. But here is the Google translation of one of her abstracts; it's not terrific but perhaps adequate:
"Cat carbohydrate metabolism 1. Amylase activity in the alimentary canal.
Adult cats received either one of 3 different starchy rations (cooked or raw corn starch, raw potato starch, 30–37% starch in dry matter) or a carbohydrate-free control ration. The activity of the amylase was determined in the pancreas, chyme and faeces. In addition, the amylase from pancreas tissue and feces was characterized (pH optimum, binding to particles, activity in the bacterial sediment, acid stability, influence of in vitro fermentation). In a further test run, the effect of oral antibiotics (500 mg ampicillin, 75 mg clindamycin, 12.5 mg enrofloxacin / animal / day) on the amylase activity in the faeces was checked. Chymotrypsin was determined in chyme, feces and after in vitro fermentation. The activity of amylase in the pancreas and chyme was relatively low (pancreas 75 U / g, small intestinal chyme 10–50 U / g fresh weight). There was only a slight induction effect due to starch in the feed; after very long-term starch feeding, the activity in the small intestine doubled. The amylase activity decreased caudally. The great similarity of the faecal amylase with the pancreatic amylase in the characterization, the lack of a systematic change of the activity in the feces with oral antibiotics as well as the decrease with in-vitro fermentation suggest that the predominant part of the amylase in the digestive tract of the cat comes from the pancreas originates."
A normal cat fed a species-appropriate diet doesn't really need any help. The cat produces quite enough proteases lipases to digest a natural diet. Research has shown that fungal-based enzymes work best, though it would take me a while to find the references and I actually have to leave for town in a few minutes.
However, Howell in his book on enzymes talks about experiments in rats showing that on a natural diet their pancreas is normal size, but when fed Rodent Chow the pancreas hypertrophies to a volume more consistent with human pancreas. When they go back on a natural diet the pancreas returns to normal.
The thing about digesting plants is that all plant cell walls are made of cellulose, which carnivores cannot digest. Hence the recommendation to "pre-digest" plant material by thermal or mechanical means--i.e., cook it, puree it, or (if hunting) consuming what the prey animal has already partly digested. Once those cell walls are breached, cats can then extract nutrition from plants.
Most digestion and nutrient absorption occurs in the small intestine, but the large intestine does contribute, primarily through secondary digestion by the microbiome. The large intestine also reabsorbs water, bile, and other things the body conserves, i.e., doesn't want to lose in the stool.
The liver itself doesn't do any digesting, but it receives all the blood from the digestive tract (which is pretty remarkable when you think about it!), for filtration and removal of toxins via Kupfer cells. These clever little cells line the ductal system in the liver and are specialized for that purpose.
I hope this helps!
I don't know if this IVC article is public-facing but I wrote it several years ago about digestive enzymes, for a little extra background and food for thought! Digestive enzymes
FrancineR shared:
Dr. Jean - thank you so much for your reply to my post about Sophie, which I have inserted below:
"Rather than olive oil (or other plant-based oil containing only ALA, alpha-linolenic acid), I would definitely go with one that contains EPA and DHA, such as fish oil or green-lipped mussel oil. By far, EPA has the best anti-inflammatory properties. DHA is structurally important, it is used in every cell membrane in the body. Cats (and dogs and humans) cannot convert ALA to EPA and DHA in any significant amount so it is important to supplement them directly. I do not recommend coconut oil at all; it doesn't contain anything she needs, and the lauric acid it contains can cause inflammation in the gut. It is also bad-tasting to a lot of cats.
Standard Process Livaplex is my go-to supplement for any type of liver disease. It can work miracles.
It also sounds like there is very little calcium in her diet (except the small amount in sardines). It might be helpful to add calcium to get a better dietary balance."
Will the fish or green-lipped mussel oils help increase her weight, as she may convert them easier? Do you prefer one over the other?
And are you suggesting that I also add Standard Process Livaplex to aid with her liver tumor? I have starting to use CAS powder in her meals...do you advise using both the Livaplex and CAS? And what brand of Livaplex would you recommend (there are so many on the market)?
I do add a touch of seaweed calcium (from The Pet Health and Nutrition Center) to each meal. The suggested dose is 1 tsp/1 lb. of food, and she eats about 2-3 Tbs per meal.
I so appreciate your input and am grateful for your concern, as well as for the concern of Dr. Jeff (her doctor) and Ginny Wilken. I am writing to you vs. posting in the Forum, as I am anxious to put the weight back on her as soon as possible. Sophie is now on a Sulphur Q1 remedy - don't know if it's related, but she has started to eat raw again...
Dr. Jean responded:
Livaplex is made by Standard Process. I would use in addition to CAS, which does very different things.
The calcium amount I use is a rounded tablespoon per pound of meat, which comes from Dr. Pitcairn's recipe. Calcium is a real booger to figure out, especially when you are math-phobic like me. Took me weeks to arrive at just this estimate!
Any extra oil adds calories and will help stabilize her weight, if not add a little more. I am just advocating an oil that does more than give empty calories, something that provides other benefits as well as just calories. OTOH the easiest way to gain weight is by packing on the carbs. (For me, it's Fritos and popcorn, but I wouldn't recommend them!) Of course, that can mess with insulin metabolism. Nothing is easy about kitty nutrition!!
FrancineR:
Livaplex suggests 1 capsule per meal. This seems like a lot for a 5-1/2 lb. cat. I spread the 1/2 CAS pill over 4 meals. Also, I have a bottle of NZ Penta Genesis from Dr. Jeff. Will it suffice for the green-lipped mussel oil? If not, I will order it.
I can increase a little of the seaweed calcium, but am leery of overdosing. Cannot readily think of acceptable carbs to give her…definitely not Fritos or popcorn, but I can attest to their weight-gaining capabilities.
Dr. Jeff:
no worries about ODing the calcium. Too little is an issue, but not too much (for older pets).
FrancineR:
Thank you, Jeff. I will increase the calcium. Also, I’ve been in touch with NZ Green-Lipped Mussel Oil and can order it individually, and it will ship from Irvine CA in 3-5 days. These are the same people for Penta Genesis?
GinnyW:
Curious about any recommendation of carbohydrates for a cat, who lacks any sort of enzymes with which to derive food value from them. Fat, from animals, would be the most natural and accessible caloric source, and fish or other seafood oil right up there in nutritional value, IMO.
FrancineR:
Ginny, I think I will stick to the animal food diet, augmented with the NZ Green-Lipped Mussel Oil. Too many supplements confuses me, and supplements will only work if Sophie eats them (she is a little picky). It will take a little time to gauge any meaningful weight gain; meanwhile, she is exhibiting really good BEAM.
Dr. Jean:
Cats readily digest and absorb carbohydrates, especially simple or processed carbs (those that have the plant cell walls already broken down). The pet food industry uses carbs as a source of energy, rather than the more expensive protein and fat. The problem is that dietary carbs that aren't used for the cat's immediate energy needs (which is pretty much all of them!) are stored as fat. I don't "recommend" carbs for cats, but the question was how to put weight on, and that is one way. A keto-type diet tends to cause weight loss, and increasing fat tends to encourage weight loss, in an overweight animal (but that isn't Sophie's case). That's the only reason I mentioned carbs.
I'm not familiar with Penta Genesis, it's not the same company as Moxxor or any of the other GLM companies that I know of.
GinnyW:
OK, Dr. Jean: I've looked around, and can't find any solid medical discussion about cat enzymes. Everyone seems to have some plant product to sell
Being that cats are inarguably obligate carnivores, I still cling stubbornly to the idea that they are not equipped to actually derive nutrition from plants - outside of some simple sugars without which they'd be fine, and I'd expect those to be processed as compounds in the liver and burned for energy, or just to get rid of them.I'd argue that, yes, a ketone-producing diet works against storing anything as fat, unless caloric intake is extraordinarily high. But it has many biological benefits on a cellular level: encouraging the metabolic production of NMN and thus NAD+, protecting against radiation, encouraging sirtuins and thus mitochondrial rebuilding. So a cat's natural proclivities will produce - a healthy cat! Gotta love it! Send links, please...and thanks!
Dr. Jean:
It's really late and I already took my nighty-night pills, but so I can get on the right track in the morning, do you mean (a) what enzymes does a cat MAKE in its own digestive tract, or (b) what enzymes are best to GIVE a cat, e.g., plant-based products vs. pancreatic extracts? (If it's (b), that's easy... fungal-based enzymes work best for omnivores/carnivores. Pancreas extracts are slaughterhouse waste from critters who are most definitely not carnivores!)
GinnyW:
hank you for answering, Dr. Jean! Yes, I really want to find out a bit of both
I can understand why fungal-based enzymes might be valuable; I don't like the pancreatic extracts for dogs or human either. I would like to know what sort of supplements would help a cat digest his natural meat diet most easily.Dr. Jeff:
Nope, the companies are not the same.
NZ Deer Velvet products is in NZ. Barry, the CEO over there would be happy to chat about sources of NZ green lipped muscle. He's very knowledgeable!! (866) 897-5688
Dr. Jean:
So, "morning" being a relative term... as I get older, it takes me so much longer to get cracking!!
"Amylase" is a general term covering starch-digesting enzymes. Amylase is produced in the salivary glands in humans but not in cats or dogs. But the carnivore pancreas does produce amylase, though less of it than non-carnivores. Feeding a high-starch diet doubles that activity over time.
Ellen Kienzle is the researcher who has done the most on feline digestion. Unfortunately, she writes in German. But here is the Google translation of one of her abstracts; it's not terrific but perhaps adequate:
"Cat carbohydrate metabolism 1. Amylase activity in the alimentary canal.
Adult cats received either one of 3 different starchy rations (cooked or raw corn starch, raw potato starch, 30–37% starch in dry matter) or a carbohydrate-free control ration. The activity of the amylase was determined in the pancreas, chyme and faeces. In addition, the amylase from pancreas tissue and feces was characterized (pH optimum, binding to particles, activity in the bacterial sediment, acid stability, influence of in vitro fermentation). In a further test run, the effect of oral antibiotics (500 mg ampicillin, 75 mg clindamycin, 12.5 mg enrofloxacin / animal / day) on the amylase activity in the faeces was checked. Chymotrypsin was determined in chyme, feces and after in vitro fermentation. The activity of amylase in the pancreas and chyme was relatively low (pancreas 75 U / g, small intestinal chyme 10–50 U / g fresh weight). There was only a slight induction effect due to starch in the feed; after very long-term starch feeding, the activity in the small intestine doubled. The amylase activity decreased caudally. The great similarity of the faecal amylase with the pancreatic amylase in the characterization, the lack of a systematic change of the activity in the feces with oral antibiotics as well as the decrease with in-vitro fermentation suggest that the predominant part of the amylase in the digestive tract of the cat comes from the pancreas originates."
A normal cat fed a species-appropriate diet doesn't really need any help. The cat produces quite enough proteases lipases to digest a natural diet. Research has shown that fungal-based enzymes work best, though it would take me a while to find the references and I actually have to leave for town in a few minutes.
However, Howell in his book on enzymes talks about experiments in rats showing that on a natural diet their pancreas is normal size, but when fed Rodent Chow the pancreas hypertrophies to a volume more consistent with human pancreas. When they go back on a natural diet the pancreas returns to normal.
The thing about digesting plants is that all plant cell walls are made of cellulose, which carnivores cannot digest. Hence the recommendation to "pre-digest" plant material by thermal or mechanical means--i.e., cook it, puree it, or (if hunting) consuming what the prey animal has already partly digested. Once those cell walls are breached, cats can then extract nutrition from plants.
Most digestion and nutrient absorption occurs in the small intestine, but the large intestine does contribute, primarily through secondary digestion by the microbiome. The large intestine also reabsorbs water, bile, and other things the body conserves, i.e., doesn't want to lose in the stool.
The liver itself doesn't do any digesting, but it receives all the blood from the digestive tract (which is pretty remarkable when you think about it!), for filtration and removal of toxins via Kupfer cells. These clever little cells line the ductal system in the liver and are specialized for that purpose.
I hope this helps!
I don't know if this IVC article is public-facing but I wrote it several years ago about digestive enzymes, for a little extra background and food for thought! Digestive enzymes
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