Glyphosate

[Dr. Jeff]

Hi everyone-

Glyphosate toxicity is a very important, and growing, problem. As we discussed about vaccination, it can seriously disrupt health (for us as well as for our pets).

Especially for those who are susceptible to it. However, like other poisons, at a high enough dose, it will cause serious problems.

Potential sources should be avoided whenever possible.

Experienced veterinary homeopath and food expert Dr. Sue Beal has written a great introductory essay that will get us started on our deeper dive into effects of glyphosate, how you can fit them into our vitality and balance model of homeopathy, and what you can do.

She has also graciously agreed to discuss this topic with us in this thread and during our next Empower Hour!

Here's Dr. Beal's glyphosate intro:

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Glyphosate Basics

Glyphosate is the active ingredient in RoundUp – though since the expiration of the RoundUp patent, glyphosate is also present in many generic formulations such as Rodeo and Eraser.

Glyphosate is a systemic pesticide. It is permanently incorporated into the growing tissues of the plants, concentrating particularly in the seeds and root tips. Unlike other pesticides, it cannot be washed off the plant, fruit or seeds.

It is the most widely used pesticide in North America – and because of increasing resistance to glyphosate, is now being applied at rates far above the original recommendations and is also being combined with other pesticides such as 2,4ED and Dicamba.

Glyphosate has been used as an herbicide since the early 1970s. One of the original patents for glyphosate is as a boiler cleaner and deEscaler, based on the manner in which it influences minerals. Additionally, glyphosate has been patented as an antibiotic, antifungal and antiparasitic.

In addition to its use as a general, nonEspecific herbicide, glyphosate is also used to kill weeds and other plants in crops that have been specifically genetically engineered to resist being killed by glyphosate.

(Genetically engineered / GMO plants entered the market in 1996 and now include corn, soy beans, cotton, canola (rape seed), alfalfa, sugar beets, squash, papaya, potatoes and apples. Other crops have been approved but are not being produced in the United States.

(Ninety percent of genetically engineered plants are designed to be pesticide resistant (Ht) E and all of these resist the pesticide glyphosate.

(Ten to fifteen percent of the genetically engineered plants are insect tolerant (Bt), created by incorporation of bacillus thuringensis protein material, thus creating insecticidal plants.)

Glyphosate is also commonly used as a preEharvest desiccant (drying agent) on cereal grains (for example, oats, wheat, rye), sugar cane, melons and plants such as beans and other legumes. Drying preEharvest evens ripening and reduces the amount of fuel and time needed to dry grains post harvest. These crops on which glyphosate is sprayed as a preEharvest desiccant are typically not genetically modified crops.

Glyphosate acts in extremely low doses – at the part per million and part per billion levels. The World Health Organization lists Glyphosate as a potential carcinogen (2A).


It has been shown to be cytotoxic to multiple tissues, including kidney, liver, intestine, and neural tube as well as causing behavioral and memory changes. Glyphosate also functions as an endocrine disrupter and neurotoxin.

Glyphosate is a strong chelator of positively charged ions. This means that it holds – and make unavailable for biological processes – positively charged mineral nutrients including Calcium, Copper, Cobalt, Iron, Iodine, Magnesium, Manganese, Molybdenum, Potassium, Sulphur, Sodium, Zinc and Boron.

Glyphosate also fosters the growth of pathogenic microorganisms and kills beneficial organisms. It specifically kills Clostridium perfringens, a species that helps regulate the other, more pathogenic Clostridial species and gives rise to atypical presentations of botulism. Glyphosate alters bacterial populations, intensifies pathogens and decreases beneficial organisms.

The resultant malnutrition, immune function changes and microbiome shifts of soils, plants, animals and humans that are created by exposure to glyphosate, be that intentional or otherwise, contribute to systemic dysfunction and the resultant symptoms.

Susan Beal, DVM Laughing Oak North alchemy@penn.com 814E952E6821

 

[jenniferleadulin8]

i remember this coming up in an empower hour member a few weeks ago...   she had been treating her dog for this... and i asked in the chat feed what was the best detox treatment for this issue and i think dr. jeff mentioned a pro/prebiotic regime.  would love to know more about how to treat this as well as what we can do to protect our loved ones from this...   what some of the symptoms would be that would indicate this might be an underlying issue...     a few years back my land lords sprayed round up in an area my dog would chew her bones...  they didn't think to ask or tell me, but i know for sure she chewed a bone just after it was sprayed.   thank you so much for bringing this subject to the forum... and i'm so looking forward to dr. beal on monday

 

[hsutopia]

Very disturbing!  Looking forward to finding out more about how we can help the dogs, and ourselves!

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Good memory Jennifer.

The supplement I mentioned to Jenna was Probi. From ABC Biologicals.

Dr. Beal had told me about it years ago when we were discussing some patients with GI (gastrointestinal) symptoms.

It can also be helpful for mitigating glyphosate buildup in the body.

Click/tap here to read more about Probi (which I see is on sale until 4/8)

Dr. Jeff

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Hi everyone-

Although I agree with Christine (that glyphosate toxicity is very disturbing), there might be a good "spin" that we can put on this nasty stuff (and topic).

That is, to teach us more about the important issue of individual susceptibility to it.

Just like susceptibility (and sensitivity) to any toxin or stressor.

One big question about it in my mind, that Dr. Beal might address tomorrow, is how efficiently animals can eliminate the toxin from their bodies.

If indeed it can be effectively eliminated, then individual variation within a household can be seen as just other evidence of the individual's chronic dis-ease.

If it can't be readily "detoxed", then I wonder how that inter-home variation can be explained?

Dr. Sue?

Thanks for your participation in this discussion.

Dr. Jeff

 

 

[dr_ sue beal]

Hey guys,

Susan Beal here. I'm a holistic veterinarian, homeopath, craniosacral therapist and Holistic Management educator. I work with all species and also work with farmers and other businesses - doing advisory work for livestock, soils and water issues, and land use.......

I've known Jeff and Christina for many years.

Jeff wrote earlier this day:

... how efficiently animals can eliminate the toxin from their bodies.

If indeed it can be effectively eliminated, then individual variation within a household can be seen as just other evidence of the individual’s chronic dis-ease.

If it can’t be readily “detoxed”, then I wonder how that inter-home variation can be explained?

We're actually exploring the pharmacokinetics and metabolism of glyphosate as we speak. The challenge with doing this, though, is that we don't really know how much of the product individual's are ingesting every day..... and so don't have anything to clearly compare the relative output of the product. By this I mean to say... we don't have clear data to say that X units are ingested and Y units are moved out in the urine and Z units are left in the tissues.

There is some work being done on that, though...... Monika Krueger, a veterinarian from Leipzig, Germany, has done some lovely work about this.... I can provide some references to papers she's written if folks are interested. Ib Pedersen, a dairyman and hog farmer from Denmark, supplied some of the data for some of this work based on the things he was seeing in his hogs and piglets.

What we do know, though, is that, just like in soils, there is a great deal of "it depends" in the discussion about how glyphosate is metabolized. The situation is not just complicated - but, because it involves unique and individual biological systems - it's complex.

Like soils, where we see relatively faster and more complete tranformation of glyphosate in soils with excellent organic matter, humus and humic acids, micro and macro-nutrients, and appropriately diverse microbial (and other) populations, it seems as though humans and animals who have relatively healthier guts, are receiving diets with a variety of micro and macro-nutrients and who are repopulating their microbial populations are managing the stress of glyphosate with relatively greater ease than those who are not.

We also know from work in a variety of species, that one of the single most helpful things one can do here is to eliminate / reduce the load of glyphosate entering the body. In humans they've found that switching to a (certified) organic diet can markedly reduce the urine output of glyphosate within a couple or three weeks. There are further studies ongoing around this as we speak, in humans and in other species.

When we look at the potential sources of glyphosate in the diet, it may be possible to mix and match organic and not organic products since there are some products that have a relatively low risk of glyphosate contamination - depending on the agricultural practices of the individual farmers.

It's important, too, to be able to know how to have a conversation with the farmer or grower, if you are fortunate enough to be purchasing directly from the farmer. Just because products are labeled "natural" or are purchased at a farmer's market, does not mean they are grown without chemicals. In situations where folks are more removed from the source of the food, the certified organic label does offer some confidence about how the products were grown and processed. Of course, that's a whole larger conversation - and I'm happy to expand on that at some point in time.

The other thing to remember is that GMO free does not mean glyphosate free (nor does it mean "free of other agrichemicals). Some non GMO crops are still grown using glyphosate in the agronomy practices. For instances, it's common to use glyphosate to kill a cover crop before planting a (non GMO) crop.

The biggest issue, though, in the GMO free stuff is that some things are labeled GMO free that do not actually have GMO varieties of that particular crop commercially available (like wheat and oats and barley and the beans and legumes.....) *but* glyphosate is used as a pre-harvest desiccant to help with ripening and drying of the crop. There are no GMO garbanzo beans, for example, but they can be exceptionally high in glyphosate residue - often the highest residues of foods tested.

Jeff asked about the individual variations. It seems to me that each individual potentially handles this contamination differently. It's an extension of susceptibility, really, in some ways. But we know this is an influential chemical with multiple effects at varying concentrations. Because of its toxicity (and variations of toxicity - from proven carcinogen to endocrine disruptor to antibiotic / antifungal / antiparasitic to chelator of positively charged nurtients..... ), it should be considered a strong medicine. And, thinking like homeopaths, we know that strong interferences, strong diseases - strong medicinal diseases in homeopathy speak - can overpower the vitality and impose themselves upon the vitality..... This is particularly enhanced if the individual is susceptible to that medicinal disease, though some medicinal diseases are strong enough that they have some level of imposition on all individuals / systems.

The resilience in the individual / system is going to depend on several things. Like soils, it'll depend on the diet, the relative load of the medicinal disease, the nutrients available, the health / variety / function of the microbiome / flora, and the relative vitality and state of health (real health, like you guys have been talking about !) of the individual.

So, situations in which there are other stressors - like nutritional imbalances (often inappropriate supplements or diet that is not appropriate for the species or class of stock), poor quality water or air, electromagnetic fields or stray voltages, presence of other toxins (like mycotoxins, other agricultural or household chemicals, flea and heartworm control, vaccination....), other stressors, chronic disease that has been treated in non-curative manners, weather and environmental stresses...... - will create situations in which the individual is not as able to handle the insult of the glyphosate as well as an individual who is not having to try and deal with any or all of the aforementioned.

I'm going to send this now, 'cause it's a lot of information and thought stirring - and then circle back and answer some other questions that landed today. I look forward to our discussion Monday evening - and also to some more typing as folks compost about the information we are exploring.

Take care,

Susan Beal, DVM
Laughing Oak North

 

[dr_ sue beal]

Hey again guys,

Here are some more questions that have landed on my desk today:

If I have my dog out and about in an area where they may have had exposure to glyphosate is it helpful bathe them? Is it somewhat easy to wash off?

Think about what our animals get exposed to on a day to day basis - not only glyphosate. They are close to the ground, they walk in dust and fumes (most fumes settle to the lower areas..... ), they don't wear clothes and they groom themselves with their mouths.

My bias is that regular bathing is a good thing because it removes this potential body burden from their fur and hides and also reduces the amount (of anything) that they might ingest via grooming.

Glyphosate washes off skin reasonably well, according to experimental data. I can give you citations if you want. Washing with soap and water is more effective than simply washing with water - at least for the first few hours after exposure - though plain water and soap and water remove the same amount of residue after twenty four hours or so.

I would suggest using cooler water, though, so the absorption of chemical/s is not enhanced by the heat of warm water. I can - and will - check to see if there are any recommendations about particular soaps that might be better, based on the manner in which this product reacts in different pH ranges.

When we speak about washing glyphosate off things, though, it's really important to note that glyphosate is a systemic pesticide - and it *does not wash off foods*. It's incorporated into the most rapidly growing parts of the plant. That's typically the root tips and the forming grains / seeds (rather than the leafy parts of the plants). In situations in which the glyphosate is sprayed as a pre-harvest desiccant, the plant has fairly slowly growing root tips, so the maximal incorporation is to the grain / seeds of the plant.

You also need to consider where glyphosate is likely to be sprayed. It's not going to be sprayed on green lawns (at least in most parts of the country) because it'll kill the lawns. It's going to be sprayed in roadside ditches (where folks want complete knockdown of weeds and grasses), in some irrigation waterways, on certain crops at certain times (GMO and otherwise), on paths and other areas where folks want to clear weeds and grasses......

Anything else I should do after possible exposure?

We can talk about this more, certainly, but keeping these guys in a manner in which they are optimally functioning is important. We do know that thing like humates and probiotics help with the remediation of glyphosate, too.Interestingly, in some of the work Monika Krueger has done, she's found that fresh sauerkraut juice is one of the best probiotic sources.

If I know in advance I am going to expose them, should I put anything on their feet? As I type this, I wonder if I should use black tea bags on their pads in hopes less would pass? My only reason for this would be training or competition, boots likely not an option.

Interesting question.
My gut says no. It seems to me that having boots etc would only complicate things - and might actually provide a situation in which any pesticide might be more closely applied to the hide / fur (as it gets down in the boot, gets warm, wet..... ).

I can give you lots of reasons not to use tea bags on pads - depending on what else is going on with the health and homeopathic care of the individual dog. Yep, I know the tannins are useful to harden pads.... but they can also be suppressive.... and that might throw a wrench into the larger dynamic.

In regards to veggies for dogs:
I belong to a CSA that rents their land, hence they are not looking to spend money to be certified organic. I know they follow organic practices and treat the land and farm with love and passion. They are in their 7th or 8th year of farming this land. I also have easy access to organic veggies through a co op.
I LOVE my CSA but would get my dog veggies from a certified organic source if you thought there would be any health benefits. Thoughts?

This totally depends on the farming practices of the individual farmers. There are folks who are farming in full accordance w/ organic practices and who have chosen not to certify. Their produce may be a clean as a certified organic farm.

I do have to say this, though - at risk of confusing things even more:

It is legal under certified organic regulations to use conventional manure for land application on your farm. Sometimes that manure is contaminated with glyphosate and other chemicals. In some data coming from the Midwest, they found that spreading conventional broiler manure at the rate of two tons / acre (a pretty modest amount) was the equivalent of spraying 2/3 quart of glyphosate / acre. Layer manure is worse and hog manure is even worse.

Not all organic farms have the same quality and vitality in their soils, either.... so that contaminated manure will be "metabolized" by the soil in different manners. In fact, the actual type of the soil will influence this, too - with clay soil holding glyphosate for much longer than loamy soil, all other things being equal.

And, yet another potential wrench in the organic regulations:

It's legal to say that you are growing / selling certified organic products - regardless of your actual agricultural practices - if you sell less than $5, 000 of product / yearly. So, there are some folks out there who might be growing food in other than truly organic manner and making this claim. This isn't a huge number of farmers - but it does happen.

Clear as mud, eh ?

Please don't take this conversation as organic bashing. I'm enough of a policy wonk to know there are serious issues with the national program - and I'm also really aware of the many benefits of certification. I know many biological and regenerative farmers who are doing a stellar job on the land who have chosen not to certify, I know certified and transitioning farmers who are also doing stellar work on the land - and I know some organic farmers who are "organic by neglect".

I still use ABC Plus about once a month, 3-5 days in a row, about half a scoop per dog. I remember you saying this was a good supplement to help dogs detox. Some of the dogs do put out some pretty healthy hot spots during that time.
Will this help with glyphosate detox? Should I be feeding it more? If so, increase amount per serving and/or offerings?

Full disclosure here. I've know the folks at ABC (Advanced Biological Concepts) since the mid 1980s - and I do do some advisory work for them.

That product is formulated to help with digestion, utilization, absorption and assimilation of the nutrients present in the diet / supplements. It also helps adsorb toxins and provides a template for the support and optimal functioning of the appropriate microflora.

If you are seeing hot spots in the dogs (any beest) getting the ABC Plus, it's because there is something that it's "pushing" out. You need to use less product and use it more consistently. You can actually titrate the use of this product to meet the individual needs / unique situation of the individual. Start with a smaller amount and increase it slowly over a couple of weeks - then maintain on it consistently. It's better used that way than as a "pulsed" periodic supplement.

The hot spots (or loose manure, or sweaty noses in cows.....) can be because of the detoxification of total body burden (food, chemicals, toxins).... In the case of food animals we may see loose manure or sweaty noses because the animal is getting "extra" protein nutrition because the ABC Plus is making what's in the ration more available - and we need to cut back on the ration (usually on the protein part of the ration).

ABC also has other products that help detoxify. We can talk about them if you wish, but don't want to overstep here.

I live next to farmland that sprays. If dogs are out I get them in as fast as I can and close all windows.
I am on the weather side of one field but have a bit of a tree boarder to help disperse/absorb some of the spray.
How long should I wait after they stop spraying to allow the dogs out again?
Would it help to spray some diluted Dr Bronner’s soap in kennels after? Kennels are stone with pavers in front. Wash water buckets and houses with the same?

Any buffer or border is helpful when you are dealing with spraying and potential drift. Some trees / plants are more effective than others because of stance, mechanics and the nature of the plant.

The "how long to wait ?" depends on a whole lot of things, including what is being sprayed, the weather conditions, the wind, the temperature.....

It's ideal to wash / hose off objects that might have come in contact with the spray / drift, certainly. Just remember that be so doing you are not only cleaning the area for the dogs, but you are washing the chemicals "downstream"..... It's a two edged sword. Sure, you don't want it in your backyard / kennel, but washing it away moves it to somewhere else...... Ideally, it's not going directly down the storm sewer or into a creek or onto the road..... but is washed into a relatively healthy soil based system where, depending on the pesticide, there might be some biological transformation by the active and vital function of healthy soils - structure, nutrients, microbial and other populations.

Complex, eh ?? - and with no neat and tidy answers.

Please extend a heartfelt thank you from me to Dr Beal.

You're most welcome.

I expect all this typing has generated more questions than answers..... We can keep wading through this for as long as you have questions. Remind me, too, to talk about water quality at some point in time.

Thanks for reading all these words and for hanging in with this complex discussion.

Take care, all,

Susan Beal
Laughing Oak North

 

[beccak]

Holy Moly Dr Beal! You never disappoint!!
Wow, and wow. You are correct in that my mind is spinning and will likely take some time to land/steady.

I will say, after reading this, that I am now more optimistic and empowered about this current topic/situation. There is so much in your information that will help me, thank you. And that is just after the first reading. It is all so interesting.

Comments that come to mind quickly:
So happy to hear about sauerkraut juice. Being on a tight budget for my dogs, I ferment veggies for my dogs as a source of probiotics, I can do more cabbage! I also feed kefir water.

You are also correct in that I have no idea what the farmer is spraying on the fields. My thought on using soap for outside cleaning was in hopes of 'weakening' whatever product they may be spraying. BUT, if I use soap, I could actually 'weaken' the good bacteria in the soil, that opposite of what I want.

Is Monika Krueger's work in layman's terms?

Now, in my full disclosure, Dr Beal was my first homeopathic vet. She was/is the light under the door for me and my first dog (initially treated for vaccinosis), then many more dogs, we have great history. We are unbelievably lucky to have her in our EH tonight, I hope everyone is brave enough to take full advantage of her knowledge and passion.

I will be in listen only mode during our EH but I will be gobbling up every word! Thank you Dr Beal!
Thank you Dr Feinman and Dr Chambreau for arranging this.

 

[beccak]

Opps, for got to sign that last post.
Becca

 

[jenniferleadulin8]

thank you dr. beal.   this information is so incredible and important...  looking forward to an answer of  Merryn's question about the implications of homeopathy distinction between that and the presentation of glyphosate....   about ABC detoxification products for pets..... but mostly, thank you so so much for what feels to be and almost experiential understanding through your lecture.

 

jennifer

 

[dr_ sue beal]

Hey guys,

Thanks for pushing the conversation last evening.

I woke a little after four this morning, sat bolt upright and wondered aloud about Jenna's pups. What if the big glyphosate in the urine is because he's actually getting rid of it ?!

That's always been a question for me - one which has not yet been answered to my satisfaction: Does low urine glyphosate really equate with low body stored glyphosate ? We don't necessarily know that, as I said earlier. And higher urine glyphosate might mean that the body is excreting it rather than storing it in the tissues,.....

I wonder.... aloud and in front of you all....  and speaking with only a fragment of the information about this situation.... whether this urine glyphosate is because he's clearing it ? We know that the test is simply a small window into a larger dynamic. We don't know what the levels were three months prior - and I don't know what's been going on in the pup's life, either.... that might, for example, potentially have him excreting this substance from tissue stores.  I think that conversation is worth having. We don't have to have it right here - but it needs to be examined.

I got some good news today about sourcing grass fed / grass finished beef in the northeast. Big Picture Beef has their meting in seventy Big Y stores in CT, MA, some of NY and perhaps also in Rhode Island. I don't know where all the stores in this family owned chain are, but that's their general geography. I know the folks who are involved in Big Picture Beef - and know that they are passionate about true grass fed beef. The little research project that we talked about last night (about testing the fatty acid profile in "grass fed" beef) was done by the principal in this company.

I'll add some references and papers later today or through the week, but I wanted to share those two thoughts before they left my mind.

Take care,

Susan Beal

alchemy@penn.com

814 952 6821

 

 

 

[beccak]

Emails Show FDA Chemists Have Been Quietly Finding Glyphosate in Food

Did the FDA ignore findings from its own chemists?

modernfarmer.com

thought this was interesting.

I still have questions to post for Dr Beal, hope to do so soon

Becca

 

[aruna]

New research on glyphosate:
Glyphosate Update: Dogs, Cats, Horses and People

We never thought to test cats and dogs!

When Health Research Institute started testing people for glyphosate, we just focused on people. But, a few pet owners called. They were concerned about exposure of their four-footed friends.

Our team tested a few cats and dogs, including some of our own – Ella, Shadow, Joonie and Thunder. All of them had glyphosate levels much higher than what we measured in people!

One dog had a level 200 times higher than the human average. It made us wonder, “where is all this glyphosate coming from?” To answer that question, we launched an animal exposure study parallel to the human study.

The graph below shows what we have seen so far. Cats are averaging 8 ppb which is 16 times the human average. Dogs are averaging 15.8 ppb which is 32 times the human average!

What is causing much higher glyphosate levels in animals?
You might think that exposure is due to walking outside, licking paws and grooming fur. Survey answers from study participants, however, suggest that exposure is far more dependent on pet food. Dogs that eat raw food have virtually no detectable glyphosate. Those that eat canned food have more. Those that eat kibble have higher levels. Those that eat grain-free kibble have the highest levels!

Why might grain-free kibble be the highest source of dogs’ exposure? The move by pet food makers away from corn and soy to fillers like oats, pea protein, chick peas and lentils is likely the reason.
As we have seen in the human study and by testing foods directly, crops like oats and legumes deliver the highest glyphosate levels to the consumer. This is because these crops are so often sprayed with glyphosate just before harvest, not to kill weeds but to kill the food crop to make it easier to process.

Horses eat a lot of oats and, increasingly, Roundup Ready® alfalfa, so this may explain their higher levels. We know less about why cats have higher levels because only a few cats have participated in the study so far.[/TD]

What are the consequences of chronic exposure by animals to glyphosate?
There is less research on the consequences of glyphosate on the health of pets than on the health of humans. Given the correlation between glyphosate and lymphoma in people, the question naturally arises, “Is there a connection between glyphosate and the dramatic rise in cancer rates among pets?”

Perhaps veterinary researchers will investigate and let us know. In the meantime, feel free to share information from Health Research Institute’s animal exposure study with your veterinarian. Let us know what they think.

You can also enroll your pet in the HRI study. We plan to submit it for peer-reviewed publication once enough data is collected. This may encourage other researchers to take a closer look.

 

[Dr. Jeff]

Here's a post from the COVID thread about how glyphosate exposure may also be worsening the COVID pandemic:

Your Pets, Flu and COVID-19 ?

Here's more about One Health and the similarities between people and pets: https://www.fda.gov/animal-veterinary/animal-health-literacy/one-health-its-all-us And a quote from the best description I've read so far about One Health: we will be more able to proactively and pre-emptively...

www.holisticactions.com