Persistent Bile Vomiting in Dog

stephescott1

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Apr 3, 2019
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Hello!
New to the group and need some help regarding some problems my dog has been having.

Sex: male
Age: 7
Neutered
Breed: mutt
normal weight: 44lbs. currently at 40

For a little over the past year Jude has been having issues with vomiting bile first thing in the morning or right before dinner. The vomiting is so aggressive to the point where he at times falls over from holding is breath. He shows no other signs of upset during these episodes and is back to his usual self after he does this. This used to occur a couple times a week up until he completely stopped eating his kibble. We've since been seeing a holistic acupuncture vet that has recommended a fresh food diet, chinese herbs and feeding multiple times a day. (morning, lunch, dinner & right before bed). His symptoms have improved to now only once every two weeks or so but has not improved beyond that for the last couple of months. He also occasionally will have an obvious upset stomach with gurgling noises, eating grass, occasionally regurgitation and diarrhea. This is less frequent to bile vomiting. On a daily basis he coughs, hacks, etc as if bile or whatever it is is creeping up his throat. He also is gassy, has bad breath and pants pretty excessively in the evenings and sometimes in the middle of the night. You can tell he's restless and moves from his bed to the floor. He has had a general blood panel done and tested for addisons and cushings. All came back negative/normal results.

Current diet: (ratio for a couple days)
white and sweet potatoes (8 lbs)
ground turkey (2 lbs)
peas (1 lbs)
chinese herbs
balance it vitamin
digestive enzyme
seameal
*he was losing weight initially so he's currently eating an excessive amount of food to try and re-gain. 7 cups a day. 6 cups just had him maintaining.

little quirks:
-loves to be around us in the same room, but doesnt like to cuddle and not that affectionate. likes to be pet on rare occasions, but still likes to play and will bring his toy
-eats his poop in the evenings
-occasionally licks the concrete in our backyard
-very sloppy drinker
-has recently started "asking" to go outside just to sit out in the sun

stool:
-usually well formed, although peas dont seem to digest well
-tends to be color of the pigmented sweet potatoes

I have watched the vomiting webinar and HA introductory course. Still a little unsure what remedy to use. Also any advise or tweaks we could make or ideas on whats going on would be much appreciated! Thanks so much!

Stephanie
 

Dr. Jeff

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Welcome Stephanie, and thanks for your post!

In order to better put Jude's "bilious vomiting syndrome" (the fancy vet name for it) in context, the first question is:

How's his BEAM (Behavior, Energy, Appetite, Mood)??

Has his BEAM improved with the acupuncture?

Who is the acupuncturist?

Was his recent blood (and urine?) panel compared to any previous baseline testing?

Have you consulted with an internist (a vet who specializes only in internal medicine)?

Regarding specific homeopathic medicines, I'd definitely recommend thew weekend seminar about fine-tuning Jude's Vitality and Balance using homeopathy.

The live session is coming up on May 4-5 and the 2018 seminar recordings are in your member area (under resources).


You (and all new members can use the $50 discount coupon code = NEWMEMBER
 

Dr. Christina

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Jun 15, 2017
Messages
105
Stephanie,
If you are going regularly for acupuncture, all those issues should resolve if the whole dog is being treated.

If you attend the weekend seminar we can use your case as an example, if you remind us. And if you have an interested friend, the two of you can support each other and explore the many healing options together.

I would definitely work on the diet, especially feeding lots more variety and avoiding peas as a daily food. I suggest feeding meaty bones (chicken necks, turkey necks, etc). Puree all vegetables fed. Try eggs, fish and dairy.

I suspect his microbiome is off, so I would definitely be using probiotics and/or Answers fermented goats milk.

There are enough symptoms of chronic disease that even if the digestive issues are helped by the supplements, you will know if his health is improving. Once he is healthy you will not need probiotics or digestive enzymes.

When healthy, he will also not lick concrete nor eat stool.
Dr. Christina
 

stephescott1

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Apr 3, 2019
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Thank you for your replys Dr Jeff & Christina!

-His BEAM good. He's his usual self despite the bile throw ups. His appetite is great and never forgets to let me know when feeding time is. Only time his hunger subsides is when his stomach is occasionally upset, gurgling, etc.

-He actually hasnt done acupuncture yet, but I could ask. I though maybe she just used for musculoskeletal. Do you think it would be useful? The acupuncturist is Dr. Amy VanDyke. We live in Destin, FL.

-We've only done one set of tests and have nothing to compare to.

-I have not consulted with an internist. Not many options near where we live. We are moving to Salt Lake in October, so hoping to have more options there.

-I will definitely look into getting signed up for weekend seminar and would love if you could use Jude's case as an example!

Thanks for all the tips Dr. Christina. I am in the process of switching to more of a raw diet at the moment. Little overwhelming at first!
 

Dr. Jeff

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Hi Stephanie-

Acupuncture can be very helpful when used holistically, vs. primarily directed at stomach/vomiting problems.

This is a great example of why the "totality of symptoms" is so, so, important!

If one symptom improves but BEAM (or other symptoms) worsen, then the treatment needs to be changed.

So the answer is, yes but it depends on the individual acupuncturist.

You can tell by the length of the initial consultation, tthe detail of the questions asked and whether Jude's entire history was also considered.

For a 7 year old dog, minimum length of time is typically 45-60 minutes.
 

Dr. Christina

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I went to www.tcvm.com to search for acupuncture vets in your area. They listed Dr. Van Dyke but she had no certifications listed (could be a web error). Several others in the area also did not have certification listed. Nearby there is also Carol Vavra who is certified in acupuncture, chinese herbs and chinese food therapy. You may want to check her out.

Or you can work with a homeopath by telephone. Members can become patients of Dr. Jeff (www.homevet.com).

If you are challenged by feeding fresh - read some of the posts in the nutrition section for support.

Dr. C
 
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Cyd

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This ca se had a lot of similarities to my dog, Elliott's bi-weekly bile vomiting, accompanied by grass eating & overall periodic digestive issues, gurgling, gassiness. He was also taking probiotics & digestive enzymes & eating a home-prepared diet. He had been treated for a massive hookworm infestation right after I adopted him. Unfortunately, the vet who treated him neglected to recommend a double-check fecal exam afterward, I was not aware that Elliott still had hookworms 1 year later. After the 2nd round of 3 doses of de-wormer, he stopped having the vomiting issue & his digestion began to settle down. Even though he had a smaller qty of hookworms leftover fm the initial incomplete de-worming, the effect those lingering worms had on his system were very interesting, causing kind of a chronic, periodic, low-grade digestive imbalance. They must hv been creating toxic by-products as well, because he also had an extreme need to urinate after 5 hrs, very noticable at night & that problem also resolved. I mention my experience because there were several similarities & I didn't notice any mention of fecal exam results. Elliott's case was a real eye-opener for me because I now believe that a dog that I had almost 40 yrs ago w/similar issues was also probably suffering fm intestinal parasites that were not diagnosed & after 1 negative fecal exam worms were ruled out & I don't think vets knew that just 1 exam was not a reliable means to eliminate worms as a possible cause.
 

stephescott1

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Apr 3, 2019
Messages
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This ca se had a lot of similarities to my dog, Elliott's bi-weekly bile vomiting, accompanied by grass eating & overall periodic digestive issues, gurgling, gassiness. He was also taking probiotics & digestive enzymes & eating a home-prepared diet. He had been treated for a massive hookworm infestation right after I adopted him. Unfortunately, the vet who treated him neglected to recommend a double-check fecal exam afterward, I was not aware that Elliott still had hookworms 1 year later. After the 2nd round of 3 doses of de-wormer, he stopped having the vomiting issue & his digestion began to settle down. Even though he had a smaller qty of hookworms leftover fm the initial incomplete de-worming, the effect those lingering worms had on his system were very interesting, causing kind of a chronic, periodic, low-grade digestive imbalance. They must hv been creating toxic by-products as well, because he also had an extreme need to urinate after 5 hrs, very noticable at night & that problem also resolved. I mention my experience because there were several similarities & I didn't notice any mention of fecal exam results. Elliott's case was a real eye-opener for me because I now believe that a dog that I had almost 40 yrs ago w/similar issues was also probably suffering fm intestinal parasites that were not diagnosed & after 1 negative fecal exam worms were ruled out & I don't think vets knew that just 1 exam was not a reliable means to eliminate worms as a possible cause.
Thanks for sharing Cyd. What do you mean by only 1 negative fecal exam being reliable? Curious what type of tests I should be looking into
 

Dr. Christina

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It is good, if there has been worm infestation, to have two negative fecal floatations a month apart. If both are negative it is unlikely to be worms, though there is now an antibody test as well.
 

Cyd

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Thanks for sharing Cyd. What do you mean by only 1 negative fecal exam being reliable? Curious what type of tests I should be looking into
Over the years, I hv heard many different vet opinions regarding the accuracy of fecal exams, that 1 single isolated fecal exam may show negative, however the dog does actually have worms. Picture this conversation taking place when you as the dog owner are happy & relieved that yeah!!! the worm conversation can now be considered closed, I don't need to spend any more $$ on fecal exams right now. I've also been told that some types of worms are harder to detect, & sometimes evidence of worms just so happens to NOT come out in the particular stool sample being examined. Last month I had a fecal exam done to confirm that the year-long+ hookworm presence had been eliminated, I'd seen a few intermittent tapeworm segments in the days before the fecal exam. The result came back 100% negative!! & I breathed a sigh of relief :snowman: because I didn't want to hv a conversation about the need for even more chemical de-wormer for a few TWsegments. Dr. Jeff & Dr. Christina, could you comment on the validity/truth of these comments, it is what I hv been told over the years, this topic would be a good foundation builder to separate the truth fm vet$$ making tactics, though I do believe there is some truth as demonstrated w/my recent experience. Books on dog care don't typically go into these kinds of hands-on details. I really want to be able to start to discard the old wives tales I've acquired from different vets over many years. Also, could you explain the worm antibody tests, how do they work, how does the test know the difference in the time-line of a prior worm occurence, are the results more reliable & how do the costs compare? In the end, if I had a strong suspicion that worms could be causing problems, I would probably actually request add'l fecals or similar tests based on what I understand at this moment. Thank you very much!
 

Cyd

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Mar 5, 2019
Messages
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Are fecal samples the most accurate way to check for protozoas & giardia & is the term "amoeba" now discontinued to describe water borne intestinal parasites? I had adopted a dog who unbeknownst to me had protozoas & giardia, he actually became lame, it was very challenging to heal without easy access to herbs & probiotics, some current vets offer to test for an additional charge. I included it on Elliott's Nov. fecal exam in order to rule out as many things as possible, though I did tell the vet that 1) He only drinks water brought from home or if need be, bottled h20 2) He does not near bodies of freshwater to swim or play. For future fecals, would those be logical reasons to decline the extra tests?
 

Dr. Jeff

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1. Yes. The other tests are for antibodies against past or present parasites and are not as accurate (false positives).
Protozoa, yes.

2, It depends on whether you want both sensitive as well as specific answers.

The downside to the antibody or PCR (polymerase chain reaction) tests is expense and false positives.
 
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Cyd

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Mar 5, 2019
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1. Yes. The other tests are for antibodies against past or present parasites and are not as accurate (false positives).
Protozoa, yes.

2, It depends on whether you want both sensitive as well as specific answers.

The downside to the antibody or PCR (polymerase chain reaction) tests is expense and false positives.
Thank you Dr. Jeff, I would hear through the years about the antibody/PCR tests sometimes giving inaccurate diagnosis & generating a lot of needless fear. My first experience with PCR/Snap tests was for Erlychiosis, very common in Mexico, particularly with stray dogs. Every dog that I rescued displayed early symptoms of the disease, I was grateful that I was aware of the consequences of not treating early, so they took doxycycline, no resistance from my end & each case cleared up. The PCR test wasn't available until later, was recommended by vet because of history to test annually, I am glad that you clarified the false positive aspect & expense involved with these tests. When they first came out I was not aware of the the reality of PCR & paid for many re-tests, which sometimes showed Positive though zero symptoms. It seems that more & more diseases employ PCR as a diagnostic tool, Elliott's recent heartworm test is an example, there were never any symptoms or real scenarios for possible infections, yet I was forced to pay for the test which costed $50. Your response makes it easier to have a confident debate with the vet when discussing tests.
 
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Dr. Jeff

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Thanks for sharing your experiences Cyd.
 
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